Are judges now trying to lessen the impact of General Effect?

[MotoSurfBass]

15 minutes ago, exitmusic said:

Fine: What is General Effect?

Bonus Question: If General Effect depends on how well the show is designed, why are we making competitive decisions that are completely out of the control of the performers on the field?

GE is how the elements of your show are used to convey your concept and how well the performance of those elements convey the concept.

Half of GE is in the design and concept in the Content subcaption. The other half is the execution of the design in the Performance subcaption. The idea of the performers "selling the show" falls into this as well.

[exitmusic]

43 minutes ago, MotoSurfBass said:

GE is how the elements of your show are used to convey your concept and how well the performance of those elements convey the concept.

Half of GE is in the design and concept in the Content subcaption. The other half is the execution of the design in the Performance subcaption. The idea of the performers "selling the show" falls into this as well.

Accepting this to be completely true, it means that you cannot score 20 in a GE caption unless your design is good enough. Therefore, half of the GE score is determined by staff members at a bar someplace in the middle of November.

Going further down this rabbit hole, if half of GE is "content," why isn't the Content subcaption score consistent at every show from June 20 - August 12? Is the Content getting better somehow? Isn't it the same Content? Is the Content subcaption really, "How good are the changes you make?"

Even further, if your definition of GE is correct, how can scores ever vary, judge to judge?

[henry7184]

12 minutes ago, exitmusic said:

Accepting this to be completely true, it means that you cannot score 20 in a GE caption unless your design is good enough. Therefore, half of the GE score is determined by staff members at a bar someplace in the middle of November.

Going further down this rabbit hole, if half of GE is "content," why isn't the Content subcaption score consistent at every show from June 20 - August 12? Is the Content getting better somehow? Isn't it the same Content? Is the Content subcaption really, "How good are the changes you make?"

Even further, if your definition of GE is correct, how can scores ever vary, judge to judge?

Well that's true of ever caption. Guard has substance all others have content. They say the better you get the more content is revealed, which doesn't make much sense to me, I guess. And content changes through the course of the season as corps add in things and change things. 

Scores vary judge to judge all the time. We are only human. I may see something different, for better or worse, than you. But I think the judges get it right. Corps are placing exactly where they should be.

[MotoSurfBass]

15 minutes ago, exitmusic said:

Accepting this to be completely true, it means that you cannot score 20 in a GE caption unless your design is good enough. Therefore, half of the GE score is determined by staff members at a bar someplace in the middle of November.

Going further down this rabbit hole, if half of GE is "content," why isn't the Content subcaption score consistent at every show from June 20 - August 12? Is the Content getting better somehow? Isn't it the same Content? Is the Content subcaption really, "How good are the changes you make?"

Even further, if your definition of GE is correct, how can scores ever vary, judge to judge?

To answer part 1, you are correct. A 20 in GE means the show was designed to its fullest effect, and the performers performed it to its fullest effect. Half of the score is determined by staff designs and changes throughout the season. No corps has the same show in November that they do in August.

Your second part is tougher to answer... yes, changes and fixing rough areas are a part of scores improving. In many cases, however, member performance can cover or expose certain aspects that may be overlooked if they are or aren't clean enough. GE is so nuanced that little things can pop up from show to show.

The other aspect relates to your third question. Scores vary judge to judge because different judges see different aspects of the shows and will notice different details. Scoring and slotting may also vary between judges. GE is by no means an objective caption, just like any other caption. My explanation is simply the closest you can get to objectifying it.

[Schnitzel]

4 hours ago, exitmusic said:

Accepting this to be completely true, it means that you cannot score 20 in a GE caption unless your design is good enough. Therefore, half of the GE score is determined by staff members at a bar someplace in the middle of November.

Going further down this rabbit hole, if half of GE is "content," why isn't the Content subcaption score consistent at every show from June 20 - August 12? Is the Content getting better somehow? Isn't it the same Content? Is the Content subcaption really, "How good are the changes you make?"

Even further, if your definition of GE is correct, how can scores ever vary, judge to judge?

The truth is that the quality of design has everything to do with the GE score, especially the "top box" of the GE sheet ("Repertoire Effect").  As much as a lot of us would like to discern a way to negate the "staff members at a bar" part of the equation, it's just not possible.  Unless, of course, you require all the groups to perform the exact same materials - likely not, right?  Some feel that there are de facto "compulsories" in play as it is.

As to the rise of the content score (actually Repertoire Effect) during the season, that's because there is a direct relationship between the quality of performance and the effectiveness of the writing - in both directions.  I use the "Peeling the Onion" illustration: high-quality composition (musical or visual) is like peeling an onion, in that the higher levels of performance expose more levels/possibilities for achievement.  If there's enough depth, then the growth potential is near-infinite.  Most any performing artist spends a lot of time "chasing" the ultimate performance of substantive material.  Perfection isn't even a concept - if anything, it limits the imagination.  In theory, the elimination of error is just the means to an end.

As to "inconsistency" of scores:  performances and performance dynamics (venues, weather, etc.) are inconsistent.  I'm told that the reason Dr. Allison's scores (and rankings) for the 2013 Cadets changed, as documented earlier, was that the stadium conditions at the outdoor stadium in Massillon, Ohio were much different than indoors at Lucas Oil Stadium, as well as different performances from all the groups.  Sometimes, God Forbid, scores can even drop!

[jwillis35]

19 hours ago, Corps_Efan said:

The Bluecoats changed GE forever! 

I'm hoping that the judges continue to show approval for for innovative, modern, creative design!

I don't think the judges are sending Bluecoats or anyone else a message on GE. GE can cover a wide variety of styles. I think Bluecoats are not very clean and may have some sections of the show that bog down a little (like their ballad). That's probably enough to put them in 4th. Yet they are not that far out of first in GE. The top 4 are close. So if the judges are sending a message it's "you're close, keep improving."  It's not "we no longer like this, you may need to change."  

[garfield]

19 hours ago, Cappybara said:

Or have a downloaded archive 

Or have an actual, physical archive.  

[garfield]

18 hours ago, Cappybara said:

But "effect" to the judges is very different from "effect" to the audience. 

I highly suggest you listen to this video judging the brilliant Cadets 2013 show on GE Music and see the types of things the judge comments on. I think that a lot of the stuff that is commented on is not something an audience member would necessarily be "emotionally" moved by (btw, nothing in the word "effect" implies some sort of emotional movement)

 

"Jesus!"

 

Lol, I love hearing this judge's reactions.

[dcibrando]

It's really all about how crazy the "costumes" can be now adays right?

[ShortAndFast]

15 hours ago, exitmusic said:

Fine: What is General Effect?

Bonus Question: If General Effect depends on how well the show is designed, why are we making competitive decisions that are completely out of the control of the performers on the field?

Yes, a large portion of DCI scores (50% on paper, I'd argue somewhat higher in reality) are determined by the quality of the design. We entered the design-driven era in 1984 with the move away from the tic system, and it's grown from there.

I don't believe there's all that much difference in the ability levels of the performers at, say, BD SCV & Bloo. All 3 corps certainly had their pick, from many who auditioned, of college-aged, experienced & skilled performers in all captions. Design is going to determine the eventual champion.

I'd argue that everyone knows and accepts this. If rock star percussion caption head X moves to a different corps, 10 different threads on DCP will be talking about it. The fact that lead trumpet Y moved to different corps happens every year and nobody pays any attention to it.