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10 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 With decidely mixed results..... at BEST.

 If attire and placements results are connected ( I believe not ), then the conclusion we draw insofar as the Cadets are concerned, is that their decision to alter their attire in midseason 2 seasons ago had led from their 1st place placement position ( at San Antonio Regionals that they won) to a plummet to 7th at the moment since having abandoned their 80 + years of their iconic Cadet styled uniform for attire.

 The Bluecoats went hatless in 2016 and won their 1st title. They fell to 5th here in 2017 with the " new look " of the bowler hat. Did their attire have anything to do with winning a DCI Title in 2016, and falling to 5th here in 2017 ? I don't think so. Their attire/ headgear choices was irrelevent to both season's finish, imo.

 The most radical change in attire and headgear for 2017 with the DCI Corps was with the Madison Scouts, imo. Their 2017 attire and headgear was totally unlike any look the Madison Scouts have had in the last 40 years. What placement effects did it have ? None. It did not move the placement dial at all for them. The Madison Scouts were a 12th-13th place Corps in 2016, and a 12th place Corps this season as well. Thats because the attire/ headgear they had on were a non factor in EITHER season's placements.

 We are correct that " Carolina Crown " has changed attire and headgear every season. Such annual attire and headgear change has resulted in their placing anywhere from 1st place to 33rd place in their attire/ headgear choices that take place annually with them. Likewise, the Cadets have won multiple DCI Titles in their Cadet styled attire and shako, as well as finishing out of the Top 25 in the exact same attire/ headgear. Thats easy to explain as well. This is because what Crown and Cadets had on for attire/ headgear was irrelevent to their season's placements in ANY year we want to look at from either of them.

 Just about EVERY DCI Corps made new choices in attire/ headgear this season over 2016. Most of it following the trend to have the attire  in some manner match the Corps selected theme. If attire/ headgear choices had much of an impact on a Corps fortunes in placements, we would have witnessed much more shifts in placements/ scores.. Afterall, we just said that just about EVERY Corps changed their attire/headgear for this summer. But were there wholesale changes in placements this season over 2016 ? No.. not really. This only adds even further credence to the belief that what attire/ headgear a Corps chooses for itself, it really is mostly irrelevent to their scores/ placements. Which brings us back to the Cadets. If the Cadets have won multiple DCI Titles in their same iconic Cadet Styled uniform ( in several years, topping Corps that changed attire/ headgear every season) then the Cadets attire/ headgear change had no bearing on the placements, and they probably should have stayed with the Cadet styled attire/ headgear, for no other reason than the Corps continuation of their branding.  Cadets changed their attire/headgear even multiple times in this seaaon's show too, and it likewise was irrelevent to their ultimate finish.

 Finally, its worth noting that the DCI winning Corps this season had the 1st quarter of their show a " retro " show.. a traditional show. Did it hurt them in the scores/placements ? No. The Corps with THE single most traditional shako in all of DCI likewise was the Blue Devils this season.  The BD skinny , smallish, traditional, white plumes were as " traditional " in headgear as any Corps in DCI this season. Did it hurt them in placements/scores ? No. Did it help them in scores/. placements ? No, as well, imo. Thats because, as we should be able to readily see by NOW, what you wear for attire/ headgear is a non factor in any of these World Class/ Open Class Corps scores and placements. Its all about the Show Design, the staff instruction levels, and the marcher talent levels, and their performance levels of execution out on the field. The attire/ headgear did not make any difference in these Corps in World Class/ Open Class scores and placements for 2016, nor in 2017. Those staffers that make decisions on attire/ headgear that think they need to " follow the herd " regarding attire/ headgear choices in order to keep up, and maybe move up in scores/ placements are probably not looking at the data to see that there is no connection at all to attire/ headgear and a Corps placement prospects. The Bluecoats went hatless in 2016 and won a DCI Title. BD did NOT follow that " trend ". BD went traditional and kept the traditional shako/ plume and it had no effect whatsoever on their ability to go undefeated and win it all here again in 2017 with yet one more DCI winning title for themselves.

If your argument were true every corps would go out and perform in jeans and a t-shirt.  The costume is part of the show design.

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6 hours ago, cadet93 said:

If your argument were true every corps would go out and perform in jeans and a t-shirt.  The costume is part of the show design.

which the Cadets did several times in the 80's and early nineties when the deliveries hadn't arrived (some say the bills hadn't been paid.)

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Jeans, white t-shirts and corps jackets.

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38 minutes ago, oldcadetsop said:

Jeans, white t-shirts and corps jackets.

and remember the white painters' caps which were tried but tended to be blown off the heads in the fast drill?

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14 hours ago, xandandl said:

Critiques cease once Allentown hits, yes?

correct. Geez this turned into a tempest in a teapot

I only commented on the positive nature of the comments due to the similar reaction to the video on YouTube...  It just seemed odd that an 8th place line would be so "fantastic" and "outstanding" and "musical" and "great job" and "terrific" in every moment lol

Edited by George Dixon
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8 hours ago, cadet93 said:

If your argument were true every corps would go out and perform in jeans and a t-shirt.  The costume is part of the show design.

plus the BD example - they did take off the shakos after the opening/bumblebee "traditional" segment of the show and went (and won) headgear-less as the "modern" second half of their championship program. Hardly a ringing endorsement of shakos and plumes lol. SCV had zero. Crown had clear shakos etc.

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7 minutes ago, DCPusername said:

The last critique is the night before Atlanta. Atlanta to the end is no critique. 

Thanks.

For reference interests, do you have a written or source for the info? I don't doubt you, just putting all the ducks in a row. (Since my house fire awhile back, I am still replacing some of the original sources lost to smoke and water damage, etc.)

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16 hours ago, George Dixon said:

no one said the judge should offer comments comparing the corps - geez.

Well, you said, "if a judge is putting 7 others ahead some commentary as to why is helpful and needed."

16 hours ago, George Dixon said:

This is exhausting and the snarky "I got your point the first time around" missing it entirely

There's no snark there.  Just keeping things in the order they happened.  Don't jump too quickly to assign motives. (Now that last one was snarky, but I learned it from you. :21_kissing_closed_eyes:)

16 hours ago, George Dixon said:

judge tapes should offer good, bad, and everything in between. Even finals night say a corps performance level (and competitive result) tumbles due to mental errors or ensemble tears - these should be noted on the tape so the staff understands the viewpoint and the feedback (ie: score)

I agree with all of this.  This makes total sense.  There is one interpretation I'm applying in my reading, though.  Feel free to respond if I misunderstood this point:

  • In my reading, "competitive result" is the same as score (i.e. rating).
  • If the intent were that "competitive result" includes a justification of ranking, I would disagree with those two words only.  But that's not the way I read it.

 

Finally, sorry to be exhausting.  I'm seeking to understand and to be understood.  Discussion forums are hardly the pinnacle of communication clarity, but this is why we can go back and forth for a while.  Thank you for your passion and time answering these questions and engaging these discussions.  

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9 hours ago, cadet93 said:

If your argument were true every corps would go out and perform in jeans and a t-shirt.  The costume is part of the show design.

 I know the attire is "part of the show design". Judges don't care what the Corps proper attire itself worn is. The Cadets won themselves a DCI Title as recently as 2011 with their Cadet styled uniforms and traditional shakos/ plumes. Yes, there was the duality of the Cadet Styled attire utilized that season of 2011, but nobody will ever suggest with a straight face that a theme revolving around Angels and Demons should wear a Cadet styled uniform as " part of the show design ". But it worked for the Cadets, as their Guard attire gave them what they needed re" the Show Design", and the judges could have cared less what the Corps proper attire  itself was... same as it ever was. ........ As for going out with " Jeans and T shirts ", the Cadets did so before, and their scores did not materially change once their standard Cadet styled attire came in later that season. ..... Academy this season probably had the best coordinated Theme Specific attire of all  the World Class Div. Corps this season, imo. The judges could have cared less. They fell out of Finals. Thats because their wonderfully coordinated  " show designed " Corps proper attire itself, was completely useless and wholly irrelevent to their scores and placements this season. Same as it ever was... with ALL these World Class Div. and Open Class Div. Corps scores/ placements.

Edited by BRASSO

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