Enough Judging Conspiracy Theories

[MikeRapp]

10 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

I don't think judging is so much rigged as.....pointless.

In today's DCI, whomever shows up with the most over-the-top suite of electronics, choreography, props and extraneous instruments and soloists is going to win G.E.  And G.E. > everything else.  A corps could sweep captions and still come in 2nd or 3rd if they don't do enough scatter drill and dancing.  And that's precisely the way the corps directors want it to be, regardless of whether it serves to delegitimize the entire point of competition or not.

I don't think judging is rigged, but I do think it is by design very predictable. It's sort of like the matrix. It's awesomely complex, with seemingly infinite outcomes...and yet in reality, there are actually very few outcomes actually likely or even possible.

As an example: the top six corps are all marching experienced dci kids who learned from lower level corps. They are older, more mature, and more experienced than the kids marching for the other corps. The number of age outs at the top corps is more than all the other corps combined. As a result, while it is technically possible for Mandarins to win the gold, the reality is you could play out dci seasons for the next 30 years and they will never win a gold medal, and probably won't ever win any medal. Because there is no way Troy State is beating Alabama. Ever. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by MikeRapp

[RetiredMusTeach]

Dear DeusExGreenMachina  - thank you for taking the time and thought to write your original post.  I found it very informative.

Reading through the responses over the next pages, I realized that nothing you can say is going to change anyone's mind on here if they have already made it up and have taken a particular stand.  But for those of us who know we don't know anything about judging, it was helpful.  Thank you.

[DeusExGreenMachina]

3 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

It's sort of like the matrix. It's awesomely complex, with seemingly infinite outcomes...and yet in reality, there are actually very few outcomes actually likely or even possible.

12 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

I don't think judging is so much rigged as.....pointless.

In today's DCI, whomever shows up with the most over-the-top suite of electronics, choreography, props and extraneous instruments and soloists is going to win G.E. 

It's simple.  If it hits the sheets and hit hits a certain box, it gets a certain score.

[DeusExGreenMachina]

1 minute ago, RetiredMusTeach said:

Dear DeusExGreenMachina  - thank you for taking the time and thought to write your original post.  I found it very informative.

Reading through the responses over the next pages, I realized that nothing you can say is going to change anyone's mind on here if they have already made it up and have taken a particular stand.  But for those of us who know we don't know anything about judging, it was helpful.  Thank you.

Thanks buddy.  I posted this because it breaks my heart reading thread after thread about judging conspiracy madness when I've had to deal with the same kind of personal threats even on a local (circuit) level for years.

We're in this for the activity and the growth of the performers.

[Stu]

26 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Interesting.  I never said 'DCI GE judges are out of touch with new artistic designs and should retire.'  However, if I ever said such a thing, and could cogently and compellingly prove my point, I'd suggest that those who have been judging since the 70's and 80's should consider moving aside for those that are more modern.  

 

My original post was geared towards a more proactive approach to fans and current judges, but you tend to take it to more aggressive approach.  I appreciate that.  I also thank you for that.

Thanks, I think. What I am trying to get at is that this is a DCI WC section of DCP, so everything must be placed in that context. Not one 'current' DCI GE judge has exhibited any archaic rewarding; the converse is true. All 'current' DCI GE judges have rewarded new artistic designs according to current sheet interps, and the new designs have all been placed on top by all judges. Show us the many, or few for that matter, DCI judges that are tewarding archaic designs in their judging over new designs I will be with ya.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Stu

[DeusExGreenMachina]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Thanks, I think. What I am trying to get at is that this is a DCI WC section of DCP, so everything must be placed in that context. Not one 'current' DCI GE judge has exhibited any archaic rewarding; the converse is true. All 'current' DCI GE judges have rewarded new artistic designs equally according to current sheet interps, and the new designs have all been placed on top by all judges. Show us the many, or few for that matter, DCI judges that are archaic in their judging and I venture to say we will be with you on calling for their retirement, at least I will be with ya. Please remember, this is a DCI wC section of DCP.

Yes I am quite aware that this is the World Class forum.  Please don't insult my intelligence in trying to inform me so.  Like I have said earlier, it's quite interesting that this neophyte poster on the DCP forums hath triggered you thus.  Hath thou been offended?

[Brass Lover]

27 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

I don't think judging is rigged, but I do think it is by design very predictable. It's sort of like the matrix. It's awesomely complex, with seemingly infinite outcomes...and yet in reality, there are actually very few outcomes actually likely or even possible.

As an example: the top six corps are all marching experienced dci kids who learned from lower level corps. They are older, more mature, and more experienced than the kids marching for the other corps. The number of age outs at the top corps is more than all the other corps combined. As a result, while it is technically possible for Mandarins to win the gold, the reality is you could play out dci seasons for the next 30 years and they will never win a gold medal, and probably won't ever win any medal. Because there is no way Troy State is beating Alabama. Ever. 

I wonder if people said that about Carolina Crown 30 years ago.

[DeusExGreenMachina]

22 minutes ago, Brass Lover said:

I wonder if people said that about Carolina Crown 30 years ago.

Good point.  Until you get robots judging feet, movement, brass chords, percussion, guard, visual dynamics, you name it, there is always going to be the human you will always need to rely upon. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by DeusExGreenMachina

[MikeRapp]

49 minutes ago, Brass Lover said:

I wonder if people said that about Carolina Crown 30 years ago.

 I hear you. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by MikeRapp

[Stu]

1 hour ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Yes I am quite aware that this is the World Class forum.  Please don't insult my intelligence in trying to inform me so.  Like I have said earlier, it's quite interesting that this neophyte poster on the DCP forums hath triggered you thus.  Hath thou been offended?

I am not trying to offend you; if you felt that, I apologize. Jeff Ream pointed out something where I was in error and I did in fact change my stance on the most recent Cadets show. And I am willing to change my mind here.  I would just like to know how you came to the conclusion that 'many' of the 'current' DCI judges are so out of touch with new artistic designs that they are not rewarding them properly.  Especially when the opposite can be shown through evaluating recent scores and rankings; shown that 'all' of the 'current' DCI judges have actually rewarded the newest most radical designs well above any archaic designs. Can you please cite examples where any 'current' DCI judge is archaic and out of touch with new changes and point to that as why they should retire?  Do so, and I will change my stance.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Stu