Stu Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Lead said: This is patently false. There is still critique. I have already acknowledged my error. But my question still stands: concerning what happened to the give and take compromise where design staff changed some things to accommodate the judges, and the judges were moved in other areas by discussion from the staff? When did pleasing the judges become where the judges are in 'complete' control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbandguy Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Stu said: I thought that face to face process was axed a few years back along with retreat in the name of getting out of the stadium and town earlier. But even if critique is occurring my question still stands: What happened to the compromising give and take input between the design staff of each corps and the judges in order to win them over; when did the judges take 'full and complete' control where design is now only their way or no way? The face to face IS still happening and I have observed, this year, corps staff "selling their shows" to the judges, but your "product" has to be QUALITY design to have any impact on the judges. From my point of view it is THE DESIGNERS that are driving the bus...more so than the judges. A poorly designed show is NOT going to win over any judge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, oldbandguy said: The face to face IS still happening and I have observed, this year, corps staff "selling their shows" to the judges, but your "product" has to be QUALITY design to have any impact on the judges. From my point of view it is THE DESIGNERS that are driving the bus...more so than the judges. A poorly designed show is NOT going to win over any judge. Who decides what is poor? The designers or the judges? I can remember going through critique back in the eighties and nineties all season, and as long as some things were changed according to judging comments our tenacity for sticking to our guns on other things were eventually changed judges minds and well rewarded by the end. Edited June 29, 2019 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbandguy Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Stu said: Who decides what is poor? The designers or the judges? I'm sure there's some of each going on and it is constantly changing. There are some shows that I think the majority of "knowledgeable" fans can correctly say "that show design is really great" or "that show design is really bad." A well designed show, IMHO, gives the performers a chance to allow their individual talent levels a better chance for success...if success is defined as score/placement. A well designed show STILL relies on great performers! A poorly designed show will not reach that same level of success even if the members are very talented and are executing what they have well. There was a time when the main elements in great show design were great music arrangements and great drill writing. A combination of those two could create great GE. It goes MUCH further than that today. Those two alone will not get you near the top. Some may argue that is not a good thing, but it is what it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldbandguy said: I'm sure there's some of each going on and it is constantly changing. There are some shows that I think the majority of "knowledgeable" fans can correctly say "that show design is really great" or "that show design is really bad." A well designed show, IMHO, gives the performers a chance to allow their individual talent levels a better chance for success...if success is defined as score/placement. A well designed show STILL relies on great performers! A poorly designed show will not reach that same level of success even if the members are very talented and are executing what they have well. There was a time when the main elements in great show design were great music arrangements and great drill writing. A combination of those two could create great GE. It goes MUCH further than that today. Those two alone will not get you near the top. Some may argue that is not a good thing, but it is what it is. I can remember going through critique back in the eighties and nineties all season, and as long as some things were changed according to judging comments our tenacity for sticking to our guns on other things eventually changed judges minds and were well rewarded by the end. That changing the judges minds through tenacity of not yielding is what seems to not be happining today. Edited June 29, 2019 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbandguy Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Stu said: I can remember going through critique back in the eighties and nineties all season, and as long as some things were changed according to judging comments our tenacity for sticking to our guns on other things were eventually changed judges minds and well rewarded by the end. That changing the judges minds through tenacity of not yielding is what seems to not be happining today. I totally get your point Stu. I observed critiques back in the day too...often more entertaining than the show 🙂 I even personally know judges that left the activity (judging) because of it. I do, however, think that the :"changing of judges minds" DOES still happen in this day and age. Maybe not as much changing of minds , but more making sure the judges are better aware of what is actually happening at different points in a show. Even as a fan I find it amazing how much I missed on my first, second or fifth view. Being a judge is not easy...or maybe better stated...being a GOOD judge is not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 15 hours ago, tesmusic said: Once again, making the corps irrelevant and in need of a makeover. Although I would say closer to 20 years it would have been competitive. 20 years ago this show would be DQ'd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed&Stunned Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Stu said: But even if critique is occurring my question still stands: What happened to the compromising give and take input between the design staff of each corps and the judges in order to win them over; when did the judges take 'full and complete' control where design is now only their way or no way? It appears to be a different relationship. The designers have less control over what it considered good IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 53 minutes ago, tesmusic said: My concern is if they wait until August, they make an already fractured alumni base, an abysmal recruiting structure, logistics for camps/auditions that were not ready for 2029 until almost mid-November, etc. behind yet again. There have been too many years under the CK administration that we’ve been behind and if we wait until August-after finals, we’re behind yet again. I firmly believe they must take action, the board that is, now, make a leadership change now, have audition/camp information available August 1, as many top corps do, and start an conscious campaign to inundate with info to jump start 2020. There are means to do this that are inexpensive and there are many that would jump at the opportunity to help. That, or CK needs to own up now, for the good of ye corps/organization and step down. He’s had a decade, and that’s been MORE than enough time. My concern is that firing the man in charge mid-tour causes even more fractures and creates a Chernobyl recruiting scenario. Worse yet, if the administrative baton is not smoothly relayed (and how would it be in a firing?), mistakes will be made and the corps will be financially behind in August. In nearly every case I can recall, a director change in July led to the permanent demise of the corps. I do not see how you get the kind of wholesale admin/BOD change some advocate for here to take effect at 11:05 PM finals night, with the next season staff already hired. You have to concede one season without that perfect advance preparation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesmusic Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 1 hour ago, cixelsyd said: My concern is that firing the man in charge mid-tour causes even more fractures and creates a Chernobyl recruiting scenario. Worse yet, if the administrative baton is not smoothly relayed (and how would it be in a firing?), mistakes will be made and the corps will be financially behind in August. In nearly every case I can recall, a director change in July led to the permanent demise of the corps. I do not see how you get the kind of wholesale admin/BOD change some advocate for here to take effect at 11:05 PM finals night, with the next season staff already hired. You have to concede one season without that perfect advance preparation. Which has been how things have seemed already the past few years, without an admin turnover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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