What would you think if...

[cfirwin3]

20 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

For the competitive drum corps, football fields are their natural setting.  Always have been.

Perfection and idiom are two different things.  Moreover, what is considered "perfect" in one idiom could be all wrong in another idiom.

That is an inherently unfair question, since one cannot know the faults unless they could hear both amplified/unamplified versions.  Nevertheless, if the fault is an inability to project, amplification would absolutely hide that fault and improve perception of ability.

I disagree, actually.  First of all, many BITD soloists were not staged very far away from the remainder of the horns, so there was no significant projection advantage on account of staging.  Going back far enough, some did not even step out of line.

The real reason soloists began to step forward was so that the audience could see who was soloing.

If I wanted to hear concert hall sound, I would go to (wait for it) a concert hall.  I certainly would not go to a football field.  Neither the windy outdoor field nor the echoing indoor one will suffice.

You seem not to grasp that there are people (like myself) who like drum corps specifically because of the idiomatic idiosyncrasies you sneered at earlier (i.e. the idea that brass players have to project in the context of a football field venue).  I go to drum corps shows specifically to hear what brass and percussion players can do in the unforgiving environment of an open field.  I do not want electronics amplifying those sounds, or synthesizing other sounds, in order to make that field vaguely resemble a concert hall.  In fact, the drum corps activity was pretty much the last refuge FROM electronics until recently, and the emphasis on acoustic sound and performance skill was what made drum corps unique.

True.  That is where the sampling comes in handy.

Your responses are all over the map.  But essentially, you are holding to your aesthetic and defending it on the grounds of nostalgia.  There is obviously nothing wrong with that.

But to your point about idiom and perfection... Drumcorps has always dealt with portraying non idiomatic material in its own idiom.  But brass playing is brass playing.  On a scale of 1 to 10, passing off a soloistic phrase meant for 1 with a 6 creates all kinds of problems.  The constraints of the idiomatic shift hurts the material.

Would you prefer Crown to play that duet material without amplification?

Doing so might be nostalgic and cute... but it sure wouldn't be perfect.

Drumcorps fandom suffers seriously from a heavy helping of machismo... I see it more and more in these threads.

Edited August 7, 2019 by cfirwin3

[E3D]

17 hours ago, Eleran said:

Chester, PA.

And at MetLife, Bluecoats were allowed to stop their show in the middle of some rain in order to wipe-down their props (and potentially protect their electronics) for a few minutes, then restart their show from where they left off.

Can you imagine a Orchestra stopping in the middle of piece to allow the members to take a toilet break, then come back and start where they left off? ROFL 

[garfield]

15 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

What shows are you watching? The members are playing less, compared to whom/when?

These kids are doing amazing things on the the field. The enhancement of A&E are allowing them to do that better and more naturally without having to compromise technique for the purpose of projection. 

Look at the evolution of the front ensemble technique after A&E. The approach by the musicians has become more natural, musical, dexterous, and virtuosic since the need for banging the keys for the sake of projection was removed. Now these musicians are playing things that I could have never imagined when I marched. 

The concept is the same for the enhanced brass support and amped soloists. I'd anticipate the trend to be that the musicians will be playing more notes, idiomatically, and with better tone quality because of the support provided by A&E. 

 

The same ones you are, of course.

Is there "simultaneous demand" credit given to individual performers for moving props while carrying their instrument?

Just wondering...

 

[garfield]

11 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Your responses are all over the map.  But essentially, you are holding to your aesthetic and defending it on the grounds of nostalgia.  There is obviously nothing wrong with that.

But to your point about idiom and perfection... Drumcorps has always dealt with portraying non idiomatic material in its own idiom.  But brass playing is brass playing.  On a scale of 1 to 10, passing off a soloistic phrase meant for 1 with a 6 creates all kinds of problems.  The constraints of the idiomatic shift hurts the material.

Would you prefer Crown to play that duet material without amplification?

Doing so might be nostalgic and cute... but it sure wouldn't be perfect.

Drumcorps fandom suffers seriously from a heavy helping of machismo... I see it more and more in these threads.

I'm a sissy and you know it.

(Sorry, I didn't mean to offend sissys, or appropriate their place, or anything really.  What thread is this?)

 

[cixelsyd]

22 hours ago, MarimbaManiac said:

The corps are evolving to match the current state of live performance, and the expectation of a listening public that is trained to experience live sound in a certain way. The questions being asked here are the wrong ones. Instead of asking "How does this compare to drum corps performances from 20 years ago," the designers are asking "How does this compare to other live performances in different genres/spaces."

The basic standard for live sound at this point, is to use technology (amplification, EQ, live effects, monitoring, etc) to maximize the sound quality, utilizing the performance space and bringing the best possible sound to the maximum number of people within that space. Every single live outdoor performance (or indoor large venues) uses amplification to balance and project to the listeners. Ever been to an outdoor orchestral performance? Yeah they're using individual and group amplification for reinforcement. Rock/Pop/Jazz/etc at a football stadium or large amphitheater? They're amplifying and using monitoring. It's about maximizing sound quality and clarity of intent. 

Yes, drum corps managed for decades without this, but times have changed and I GUARANTEE that your memories of those performances are colored by your own biases. If you time traveled back to the 70's to hear one those performances now, you would be struck at how muddled and unbalanced the sound feels now that your ears have become accustomed to the high level of sound production that is now being achieved on the field. ESPECIALLY when you consider that the recordings of those performances were recorded with multiple microphones, and then balanced, EQd, and mastered in a studio before being released. 

Times have changed, live sound design is infinitely better now, get a grip.

I have several quibbles with your characterizations, but the bolded one deserves particular focus.

Time travel is not required, as we still have alumni corps who demonstrate the point, even with performance levels that do not match what they were at peak competitive form BITD.  Drum corps of the 1970s and earlier format could be heard in striking clarity.  They demonstrated that brass and percussion were the instruments of choice to achieve that clarity in the field setting.

Totally opposite to what you suggest, I find modern drum corps has become increasingly muddled and unbalanced.  Pit percussion added inherent challenges to ensemble balance and timing.  Electronics add another 100 issues, and still counting.  As if it were not already bad enough, now corps are becoming increasingly obsessed with micing themselves and mixing that in with the acoustic sound.  Oh, I am sure someone will provide some convoluted attempt at explaining why that could ever possibly be a good thing.  But it is only really a good thing for the companies selling the mics, mixers and speakers.

I am not convinced that anyone knows precisely how these sounds "mix".  It is totally insane to take a drumline that devotes every ounce of their energy to playing in tight uniformity, and allow their sound to be picked up on scattered field microphones to be mixed in and pumped out of speakers at scattered locations with varying latency.  Soon, the only place to go hear a clean drumline will be where the field judge stands - behind the speakers.  

[cfirwin3]

2 minutes ago, E3D said:

Can you imagine a Orchestra stopping in the middle of piece to allow the members to take a toilet break, then come back and start where they left off? ROFL 

No... But I can imagine stopping an orchestra performance for a power outage.

They stopped because doing what people paid willfully to see them do had become unsafe.

[ShortAndFast]

34 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Beautifully written. And what happens when the judges decide that this proper staging is fine and possibly even superior to traditional staging? Wait a corps consistently sitting around #15 cant afford to do that? Sucks for them!

You're not wrong that you need $$$ to play at the top of the DCI game.

But nobody is imposing the new stuff on the corps. Corps leadership has directly voted for all the new toys, and has not voted for much in the way of restrictions on their use. And it's not like it's close - historically most of the votes on amplification have had only a handful of dissenters.

You might think it sucks, but it's clear that #15 wants these changes just like #1 does.

[MarimbaManiac]

4 minutes ago, garfield said:

The same ones you are, of course.

Is there "simultaneous demand" credit given to individual performers for moving props while carrying their instrument?

Just wondering...

 

...as much as there was in any other year when players were carrying their instruments and marching (or doing movement, dancing, kneeling, etc) while other sections were playing. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by MarimbaManiac

[E3D]

17 hours ago, Glenn426 said:

Just found this, It might have been linked already but it was plain for everyone to see that this was coming in 2018.. 

Aaron Beck. as seen in the video above and below is at the forefront of this technology and bringing about Sound Reinforcement to DCI. He is from Cirque Du Soleil and he has been in Bluecoats staff since 2016. It all makes sense now being that 2016 was when Bluecoats' sound launched into the stratosphere above all other corps.. 

 

There was a thread about new endings for different shows and I mentioned that the new ending for bluecoats was to add a few more amps, etc. 

Seems like all corps will be adding additional sub's amps etc. for new effects. 

 

[E3D]

18 hours ago, barigirl78 said:

In the future, people won't be asking who the brass instructor is, but who the sound person is.

Somebody will be able to afford Diplo and it's all over.

seems we already have that with the "reinforcement" guy from circ du. who now everyone knows has been working for bluecoats. 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by E3D