What would you think if...

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, One n Done said:

Well....  It’s finals week and in a day this discussion has generated 30 pages.  Trust me, those within the activity are aware of what happens on DCP.  If nothing else, it definitely provides some “entertainment”.

Change a rule?  Yeah, no.  If some earnest discussion here helps brings about questions and dialogue within the member corps about audio engineering...probably a good thing.  This discussion has had its share of the expected snark and defensiveness one would expect.  But, there has also been decent, respectful, well reasoned, and even technical talking points exchanged.  Which is great.  You are the consumer.  They listen, but don’t always respond as quickly or in the manner as some would like.

They were aware of DCP when the proposal to add amps came out. And the petition to ban them came out. And then adding synths. and then any type of brass instrument. Shall I go on?

 

The only thing they changed was posting recaps, and thats because A) their PR backfired as it made judges look bad by their own words, and B)the corps themselves leaked recaps every #### day. 

yes they are aware of DCP, and they #### on it verbally every chance they get. Even Facebook groups that are far worse than DCP #### on DCP.

[cfirwin3]

8 minutes ago, E3D said:

dude college band is a giant mob of goof offs. That is not a good comparison. 

 

I don't know about that.  I just don't find them (even the very best) to be terribly musical.  It's that brashy kazoo sound (at all dynamics).  There are reasons for it... not worth discussing.

[E3D]

3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Not exactly.  Because of rain, Bluecoats were stopped mid-show.  The instant they stopped, so did the rain.  The corps was going to leave their performance unfinished, but realizing the rain was done, contest crew and corps staff changed their mind and decided they could safely restart where they left off.

still really stupid to be allowed in my opinion. 

[E3D]

1 hour ago, garfield said:

"...absence of specificity..." , and "...vague references...", and, of course "I don't disagree..."  (so we can stop there, right? )

You're right: it does raise more questions that need addressed in the sheets.  I guarantee you that, if the emphasis on A&E or props are less pronounced in placement, the corps would limit their uses to ways that actually improve placement.  Occam and Pavlov simplicity, really.

And, in all of your (interesting) talk of communication adjudication...  If you're teaching a student and your adjudicator is judging your use of the same tools that all of your peers are using  -- or not because your school can't afford those tools, and you have to spend more of your teaching time raising funds to buy some or any tools just to "compete" (for your job, for state funds, whatever)...  You see where I'm going.  It's not a level playing field in which to "judge" anything.  Same here in the use of these "tools" of the drum corps trade.  That said, the teacher's interaction with the student is not the same dynamic here; the corps are not teachers, per se and the judges are not judging the interaction between the teacher and the student, per your own admission.  They're judging the use of the tools and the professional credentials of those charges with making them run well, not the show's impact on the audience.

 

Couchmen have announced next year they will be hiring these guys and placing them at the 50 with the sound engineers from Carnige Mellon University. Only the best for the Couchmen. 

 

[karuna]

38 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

This was happening back in the 70s and 80s. Way before mics and amps. Drum corps have always given some of the more beefy parts to the better players and have watered down their books for the rest, especially as the season comes to a close. Sometimes it was done to meet the needs of the visual, and sometimes they simply had to water-down the book for the sake of cleanliness. That issue is nothing new. It's still one of the ways to clean a show. The judges know this, and they know what to listen for and how to score it. There is no law that states that unless every member of your brass line can play the hardest "licks" then you must not perform that passage at all.  It's not cheating. It's called being smart. Showcase was you can, as well as you can, and let the judges make the call. 

 

Except in the old days you could not dynamically adjust volume of the good players vs the average.   Stop pretending things haven’t changed.   They have — dramatically — and you’re well aware of it.  Shotgun mics allow the sound  tech to create dynamic impacts only a well trained brass line could in the past.  Many lines struggled to play well at FFF.  Now dynamics are literally slider on the board. 

[cfirwin3]

Dennis Muren (9 time oscar winning visual effects supervisor) tells a story about the switch from photochemical compositing to digital compositing.

In the early 90's as they were experimenting with computers at Industrial Light and Magic, Muren took some film elements from their Terminator 2 projects and made a photochemical composite with mattes and multiple exposure and then he made the same composite on what would eventually be known as 'Photoshop'.  He took the two frames to the composition team and they all picked the photochemical one (with its black matte line and obvious color separation) over the digital one (which looked photo real).  He realized then that the difficulty in switching was not an issue of quality, but it was going to be an issue of overcoming ingrained bias and fear of personal relevance going into the future.

Ironically, said Muren, the photochemical era compositors were the most valuable digital compositors once they switched.

That story popped in my head while reading and posting in here.

I think people (who may not want to admit it) just don't like what they have known being messed around with... regardless of the quality in experience that change makes.  They don't want their experience to change.

[Fred Windish]

I accept the right of current DCI decision-makers and operatives to create whatever they d*amn well please !

[E3D]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

The line is drawn at what is allowed by the rules. 

The corps have voted down rules that limit brass amplification. 

It seems they have decided where the line is, and they don't agree with where you would like to put it. 

I would argue that the line is not clearly drawn. Maybe because of the dog and pony show that was put on where one corps supposedly gave up all their secrets. 

[cfirwin3]

33 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

To me the more put on electronics means the less the humans are being relied on

I don't think that equation can work.  In fact, it ends up being the opposite.

Being amplified means you better get it clean... otherwise everyone will know what you got wrong.

[cixelsyd]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

...but what is exactly the point of this? To level the playing field based on an arbitrary number so as not to upset those that can't keep up? Limit the product's potential because there are a few that don't want to take their products in the same direction?

PASS

The programs being produced today are some of the most dazzling and impressive spectacles that have ever been fielded in this activity, and that is good for everyone involved, corps and audiences alike. It's not just because of the money, but because that money is being paired with brilliant designers that are given the means to think outside the box, and members that are being trained to be playing and moving machines. The props and technology facilitate that, and to put an arbitrary cap on the possibilities based some misguided attempt at parity will severely limit the quality of the products moving forward. 

"But corps did it for many years without tech/props/etc"

Yes, and those shows were a snooze compared to what's being put on the field today. If DCI today looked like it did in the 70's I personally would have no interest, and I'm sure most people who have grown up in a world with technology and advanced sound design being as ubiquitous as it is now would agree. 

First, speak for yourself.  Whether 2019 programs are more dazzling than some other year is a matter of personal preference.  There is no scientific consensus there.

More importantly, the dazzle factor of 2019 show design is not the only relevant selling point.  Drum corps shows are also contests.  People pay to watch dazzling shows, and/or to see a contest.  Maybe DCI has more "dazzle" to offer now, but they have less "contest" (and historically, less audience), because of the increasing disparity of corps finances and the increasing degree to which that matters competitively.  It might be worth looking at an idea that promotes greater competitive parity, even if it "limits creativity".