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karuna

Drill is not dead? (Congrats Vandegrift!)

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3 hours ago, xandandl said:

Although with these "dance teams" rather than color guards.....

There's a difference....?   🤔

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I loved Avon and others that I saw at Grand Nationals, but I’m glad Vandegrift won in the end.  There is a purity to how they approach what they do and if you haven’t heard that band live.....holy crap.  Perfectly in tune, aligned, and performed perfection.  And what I think they do better than just about anyone is the shaping and phrasing that you just don’t get on video, the subtle dynamic stuff they do is mind blowing. Certainly what got them the highest Music GE score ever at GN.  
 

And yes, they can MARCH. Amazing form control and clarity of technique.  Dance team is a much different flavor but they picked a perfect show to showcase them.  

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On 11/18/2019 at 3:56 PM, greg_orangecounty said:

That makes sense, but I don’t think So Calif has a particularly strong HS band program and there hasn’t been a top-tier Drum Corps since the Kingsmen (one may be able to argue V.K).

Pacific Crest doesn’t count - yet at least. 

I will be VERY interested to see if Pac Crest places as high this year, or if their success was a one-off because BDB and SCVC both did not tour nationally, and therefore lost kids who wanted to go to Finals to Pac Crest, thus strengthening them.

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13 hours ago, karuna said:

Better to talk about efficiency than "harder to create and learn".

Drill based programs require FAR MORE work up-front by the designer.  But that work is supported by very mature software tools which have focused on increasing the both the productivity of the designer and efficient transmission of that information to 130 performers.  

Choreo-based programs require FAR MORE work during the instruction phase since the design is merely a sketch in someones brain.  This mode of instruction is frequently used in the winterguard world where the maximum number of performers is far lower and the performers have far more training in dance.

Of course you'll often hear "choreo-based" is far more difficult to teach from those who wish to gloss over the rest of the story.  

Difficulty for the performer to execute to perfection?   

Better to ask:  Are the performers adequately trained in dance to successfully dance for entire production?  No they are not.  So ( just like we do when moving from "real dance" to "colorguard dance"),  we move the level of expectation down when hornline members are asked to dance.  So the standards are lowered.    

Also -- can the performer successfully play their instrument while traveling in a choreo program?  No -- you can't really dance while you play so instead we see blob-fluttering from point-to-point and then standing and playing.  Also the motion becomes meaningless without huge props to give the motion a destination.  So huge props are used to create interest.  

Traditional marching is a form of choreography.  But it allows performers to create music while moving (which IMHO is the very HEART of drum corps).  And because the movement in INTERESTING and the balance of negative space to performer space is constantly evolving,  you don' t NEED the crutch of giant props to provide a destination to the motion.  The use of space itself is interesting and pleasing.  

I'm a huge fan of "drum corps dance".  It's awesome to see a full ensemble pull off some great choreography when they're not playing.  And I love seeing the choreo that's performed while they're playing but NOT traveling.  

But blob-flutters are just awful and are IMHO a severe dilution of the art.  Choreo-based shows works great in winterguard where the music is a recorded soundtrack.  But it fails miserably when the musicians need to actually -- you know  -- make music.  

well said

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9 hours ago, Lead said:

I will be VERY interested to see if Pac Crest places as high this year, or if their success was a one-off because BDB and SCVC both did not tour nationally, and therefore lost kids who wanted to go to Finals to Pac Crest, thus strengthening them.

Ouch!! So even Pacific Crest ends up being a feeder corps for BD & SCV? 

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On 11/19/2019 at 7:48 PM, Lance said:

i'll go ahead and ask whatever i want with or without your approval or evaluation, thanks.

all of the stuff about talent level and choreo knowledge and music while moving is embedded in the question, not separate from it.  

but i like adding the creative part to it as well.  

is a drill-based visual program harder to create, teach, and learn than a choreography-based visual program?  

 

OK.  

But what does "harder" mean?  

It's far harder to teach and learn because there are no drill charts, no coordinate sheets.  It's basically all in one persons head and she/he has to transmit that information orally to the entire ensemble.   So the comparison really revolves around EFFICIENCY (which is kind of what I said in my earlier post).    It's acceptably efficient in a gym with smaller numbers of performers (esp guard performers who are used to working this way).   

Harder to create?  No.  In fact the reason many winterguard designers instruct this way is because they don't know how to use Pyware or write drill.  It's just not where they came from as an instructor.  

There's absolutely nothing in a choreography-based program that can't be done in Pyware using traditional tools.  The designer has to put in a lot of work for sure.  But you can teach it far more efficiently.  

 

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Yeah, I'm not saying those aren't good points, and definitely a part of any discussion regarding a broad question like I asked.  Like a lot of people on here, I've never designed or taught at this high of a level, and I'm betting people who have for 10-20+ years might have some thoughts on it, and that those thoughts aren't all the same.   

I have a preference for drill in shows, but I have no agenda when asking this question, nor am I trying to push any type of agenda.  Not what I do.  I've taught plenty of drill, but I would have little idea how to teach the kind of movement I'm seeing in shows nowadays. I could come up with good ideas probably, but teaching it would be harder for me.  And I wonder how long it would take for me to get good at teaching it. Of course it depends on the skillset of the performers, but that's true with drill as well, right?  Would it take more or less time than it took for me to get good at teaching drill?  I'll probably never know, but I can ask others.   

Edited by Lance
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On 11/18/2019 at 3:22 PM, Glenn426 said:

In regards to the Guard and percussion judging in BOA.

Vandergrift and other Dance Line only groups highlights a blind spot for BOA.

There is considerably less risk not tossing weapons into the air. Vandegrift and other groups that do not have strong colorguard programs should really not use any weapons at all because in the current judging of the colorguard there is absolutely no need for them.

I suspect those that chose to have weapons in their show are training their younger members for the Winter season, but other than that you have ZERO need for a weaponline in BOA.

My Wife, suggested that the top WGI HS Guards Boycott BOA until their units are equally represented in the Judging sheets. I would imagine most top WGI percussion groups must feel the same way.

We really have become the Marching arts, not just Marching Band, what justification does BOA have to say that all the people in the Guard and the Percussion do not have an equal contribution to the program and its score.

Last I looked at BOA sheets the percussion rating was a 50 point subcaption on the Music Individual sheet...which ends up getting averaged into Music Ensemble sheet.  Percussion directly counts for 2.5 pts of the overall score.  Granted if you get percussion oriented Ensemble or GE judges (music GE counts for 40 pts) that can dramatically shift the influence percussion plays in the overall score.  I've no idea if BOA actively tries to split Music GE judges so you have one winds & one percussion oriented.

Regardless the basic structure of their sheets have not changed in ages and if you want to do well program for GE as it is worth 60/100 pts!

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On 11/19/2019 at 11:10 PM, DrumManTx said:

I loved Avon and others that I saw at Grand Nationals, but I’m glad Vandegrift won in the end.  There is a purity to how they approach what they do and if you haven’t heard that band live.....holy crap.  Perfectly in tune, aligned, and performed perfection.  And what I think they do better than just about anyone is the shaping and phrasing that you just don’t get on video, the subtle dynamic stuff they do is mind blowing. Certainly what got them the highest Music GE score ever at GN.  
 

And yes, they can MARCH. Amazing form control and clarity of technique.  Dance team is a much different flavor but they picked a perfect show to showcase them.  

Had to double check you on that as I remember Broken Arrow scoring 19.8s across the board in GE in 2006 for their first BOA win, but you are correct with 19.9 & 19.8 in Music GE.  Broken Arrow still has the overall GE record.

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On 11/18/2019 at 12:56 PM, greg_orangecounty said:

That makes sense, but I don’t think So Calif has a particularly strong HS band program and there hasn’t been a top-tier Drum Corps since the Kingsmen (one may be able to argue V.K).

Pacific Crest doesn’t count - yet at least. 

Ayala made GN Finals this year (12th), and Vista Murrieta did well in their regional BOA trip to the San Antonio Super Regional (20th).

Ayala ( in Chino Hills), Vista Murrieta, Upland, Mission Viejo, Trabuco Hills, Fountain Valley, Cerritos, Los Alamitos, Mission Viejo, El Toro, Chino Hills, Rancho Verde, Rowland High, Arcadia, Etiwanda, Chino, Hart, Thousand Oaks, and quite a lot of bands in the San Diego area are good as well ( San Bernardo, Mt. Carmel). Southern California has one of the stronger group of bands in the WHOLE country, participating in several different local circuits.  They regularly do very well against schools from different states and regions in the state. They may not all do BOA, but there are a lot of strong band programs in this VERY large and very populous area.

Texas, Oklahoma, and Indiana schools seem to do the best schools, especially in regards to BOA.  California, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, the Carolinas, Penn, Tenn, KY, and Ohio are a step behind at BOA.

California schools have the whole parade scene and bowl scene... So many of them put a lot of rehearsal time into that. Band programs can be strong with doing well at BOA marching band contests.

Concert season, and percussion season, which California percussion sections rule the roost show off the strong SoCal band programs as well.

 

Edited by jjeffeory

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