Madison Scouts 2023

[Vuitton]

3 hours ago, Slingerland said:

All of this. The activity has moved on, and his track record at Scouts, from a programming standpoint, was uneven, at best, and not particularly competitive. Fact is, the last time they were relevant in that department was the Carmen show in 2005, which was literally eighteen years ago.
 

They'd be better off looking for a team of young ones who have some cred in the WGI world and start all over, understanding that ambitious failures will be more valuable than meh softballs (like this year's show). Eventually they'll find some kind of stride, if they're allowed to have some breathing room.

Mason got them back into finals and consistently in flnals. While I would have liked to have seen them place higher than they did during the Mason era, his shows were exceptionally better than 2007-2009. He was getting them there. it was working. 2015 was a Mason hangover. 2015 was the result of all the pieces Mason put together coming to fruition. Who knows where Madison would be today if he stayed, but they sure would be a hell of a lot better off than they are now.

I'd rather have soemone seasoned and experienced leading. BlueStain mentioned Mandarins. That's JW. He brought Vanguard back to championship caliber from a 6/7 place corps. Now he's doing it at Mandarins.

Nothing is going to change at Madison. Nothing. 

[gbass598]

8 hours ago, BlueStainGlass said:

I would only see people leaving if new person wants new direction.  The two that left are the two that needed to leave.  You have many new people on the perc team that can build that program back up and the brass have been fine.  Boerma back will be huge and I expect a very madison show next year.  Drum corps fans dream part modern 

That's an opinion based upon only seeing on field product with no consideration to possible organizational dysfunction. I have reason to believe it could maybe be a bit of both.  I can only speak for what I would do if it were me and if an organization doesn't allow me to be in a position to succeed why would I want to stay for the amount of time, effort, and stress placed on me for the amount of money I'm being paid.

You can blame show design and drill design if you choose. Competitively it wasn't any better before those people arrived and I don't think it will be any better with who they hire to replace. The addition of bringing Scott Boerma back didn't change anything for them. The constant here has been the corps leadership. All captions scored in the same range.

That being said, I also don't think having a very "Madison show" is a necessarily a good thing. Maybe there are different interpretations of what a "Madison show" is but living in the past is not really a good way to live when the world is changing and evolving around you.

[bugleboy85]

Once again...I am always taken aback by how ignorant the commentary on this forum is.....it is a shame this organization is once again having to rebuild another design team after a very young and talented group of designers was there. Someone mentioned "young WGI designers" ....you obviously do not know the activity well. The group that was there for the last few years is very successful in both BOA and WGI.

a light google search shows.....

Jason Robb - PC at Rouse , Waxahachie, Hendrickson, Dripping Springs, and Aledo...band is not DCI...but he obviously is doing great work in his fall productions.

Noah Bellamy - Designer at Infinity (5th in IW Perc), Clover (WGI Champions)....I think he writes most of the drills for the above bands? not sure...but he obviously is successful in thw winter

Ryan Ellis - Was the artistic director, battery arranger, and visual designer at the IW percussion group Connexus...WGI Finalist.

Matt Hahn - Built Lebanon when they were SW Finalist, MBI (Medaled at WGI), Irondale (Won WGI), Vanderbilt Catholic

Tykeem Rainey - Reagan HS, Onyx, Origins World and Open

 

Designers who were relatively unsuccessful at Madison and now have moved on to other drum corps.....Vince Oliver (Brass Arranger at Mandarins), Josh Nelson & Co. (Colts), James Sparling (Cadets), Roger Carter (Bluecoats)

 

I am not saying this crew didn't have things to fix....but ever since Jim Mason and Donnie VanDoren left after 2014....we have seen year after year of struggles. But we once again see a corps fail to capitalize on a wide-open slot in finals. When is this administration going to take responsibility and lay solid foundation for BEING GOOD.

Edited August 14, 2023 by bugleboy85

[MM2006]

11 hours ago, gbass598 said:

Are you assuming they were fired or do you consider the possibility of them leaving of their own free will and a potential forthcoming staff exodus to be a good thing for the future of the corps?

They were given the option to resign or be let go. 

A potential staff exodus is always a gamble, but has worked for many drum corps in the past. The fact remains that the two biggest problems for Madison just left. Design and programming are everything, and if they can find better people for the job, they need to do so. Believe it or not, there are more capable designers than a mediocre high school program coordinator and a drill writer who has had many opportunities to write for drum corps and fails every time. 

[MM2006]

12 minutes ago, bugleboy85 said:

Once again...I am always taken aback by how ignorant the commentary on this forum is.....it is a shame this organization is once again having to rebuild another design team after a very young and talented group of designers was there. Someone mentioned "young WGI designers" ....you obviously do not know the activity well. The group that was there for the last few years is very successful in both BOA and WGI.

a light google search shows.....

Jason Robb - PC at Rouse , Waxahachie, Hendrickson, Dripping Springs, and Aledo...band is not DCI...but he obviously is doing great work in his fall productions.

Noah Bellamy - Designer at Infinity (5th in IW Perc), Clover (WGI Champions)....I think he writes most of the drills for the above bands? not sure...but he obviously is successful in thw winter

Ryan Ellis - Was the artistic director, battery arranger, and visual designer at the IW percussion group Connexus...WGI Finalist.

Matt Hahn - Built Lebanon when they were SW Finalist, MBI (Medaled at WGI), Irondale (Won WGI), Vanderbilt Catholic

Tykeem Rainey - Reagan HS, Onyx, Origins World and Open

 

Designers who were relatively unsuccessful at Madison and now have moved on to other drum corps.....Vince Oliver (Brass Arranger at Mandarins), Josh Nelson & Co. (Colts), James Sparling (Cadets), Roger Carter (Bluecoats)

 

I am not saying this crew didn't have things to fix....but ever since Jim Mason and Donnie VanDoren left after 2014....we have seen year after year of struggles. But we once again see a corps fail to capitalize on a wide-open slot in finals. When is this administration going to take responsibility and lay solid foundation for BEING GOOD.

Programming for sometimes-finalists BOA bands is fine and good, but a FINALIST drum corps is something else. The administration should take responsibility by hiring capable designers.

I dont need to look at these "resumes" to know wether or not they are good enough, I just need to look at the last two years of poor choices made by amateurs. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by MM2006

[bugleboy85]

3 minutes ago, MM2006 said:

Programming for sometimes-finalists BOA bands is fine and good, but a FINALIST drum corps is something else. The administration should take responsibility by hiring capable designers.

I dont need to look at these "resumes" to know wether or not they are good enough, I just need to look at the last two years of poor choices made by amateurs. 

Not really my point. My response was to an earlier comment that “they need to go get young successful WGI designers.”

 

We are in agreement that the administration needs to take ownership.

 

You don’t blame the employee you give responsibility when they aren’t ready for it….you blame the employer/manager. It hasn’t been working. 
 

hopefully this will be the time they change and make it work.

Edited August 14, 2023 by bugleboy85

[kdaddy]

1 hour ago, gbass598 said:

 

You can blame show design and drill design if you choose. Competitively it wasn't any better before those people arrived and I don't think it will be any better with who they hire to replace. The addition of bringing Scott Boerma back didn't change anything for them. The constant here has been the corps leadership. All captions scored in the same range.

This is a great point, though I don't think it excuses the 2023 design either. 

While I poke fun at what appears to be a huge ego wielded by Jason Robb, I wouldn't have made wholesale changes just yet unless you have someone strong locked in. Replacing Robb & Co. with a group akin to the 2019 design team isn't going to take this corps anywhere.

[scout9193]

30 minutes ago, bugleboy85 said:

Once again...I am always taken aback by how ignorant the commentary on this forum is.....it is a shame this organization is once again having to rebuild another design team after a very young and talented group of designers was there. Someone mentioned "young WGI designers" ....you obviously do not know the activity well. The group that was there for the last few years is very successful in both BOA and WGI.

a light google search shows.....

Jason Robb - PC at Rouse , Waxahachie, Hendrickson, Dripping Springs, and Aledo...band is not DCI...but he obviously is doing great work in his fall productions.

Noah Bellamy - Designer at Infinity (5th in IW Perc), Clover (WGI Champions)....I think he writes most of the drills for the above bands? not sure...but he obviously is successful in thw winter

Ryan Ellis - Was the artistic director, battery arranger, and visual designer at the IW percussion group Connexus...WGI Finalist.

Matt Hahn - Built Lebanon when they were SW Finalist, MBI (Medaled at WGI), Irondale (Won WGI), Vanderbilt Catholic

Tykeem Rainey - Reagan HS, Onyx, Origins World and Open

 

Designers who were relatively unsuccessful at Madison and now have moved on to other drum corps.....Vince Oliver (Brass Arranger at Mandarins), Josh Nelson & Co. (Colts), James Sparling (Cadets), Roger Carter (Bluecoats)

 

I am not saying this crew didn't have things to fix....but ever since Jim Mason and Donnie VanDoren left after 2014....we have seen year after year of struggles. But we once again see a corps fail to capitalize on a wide-open slot in finals. When is this administration going to take responsibility and lay solid foundation for BEING GOOD.

@bugleboy85  I'm interpreting your comments (please course correct If I'm mistaken) to mean that as good as the folks are elsewhere (ie. Fall) and after having success (with other groups) POST-the organization in Madison- the issue still bubbles up to an Individual (or individuals) in what I would call senior/ C-level management.  Am I correct?

[denverjohn]

How about "Relampago Part Dos: Female Luchadoras"

[gbass598]

32 minutes ago, MM2006 said:

They were given the option to resign or be let go. 

A potential staff exodus is always a gamble, but has worked for many drum corps in the past. The fact remains that the two biggest problems for Madison just left. Design and programming are everything, and if they can find better people for the job, they need to do so. Believe it or not, there are more capable designers than a mediocre high school program coordinator and a drill writer who has had many opportunities to write for drum corps and fails every time. 

IMO designing for drum corps and a successful band program boils down to 3 things. Competent organizational structure, a competent instructional staff and a talented member base. There are lots of band programs out there way more competent than drum corps organizations.

I've taught a HS band where the instructional staff and the member base was much better than the show design they performed. We now have a competent show designer and look forward to having big things happen this year to take advantage of our strengths for greater success

What does Madison have?

Competent organizational structure - I see nothing but alumni on here complaining about the corp leadership and probably rightfully so.

Competent instructional staff - I don't know that I can answer that fully. I know the percussion staff has shown some gains and some respect in the last couple of years but now we fall to point #3 as to what may be holding them back. I believe they have solid educators overall but are they being put in a position to succeed?

Talented member base - By all accounts, Scouts just don't draw the talent that others around them do. How do they fix that? I guess we cycle back to point #1.

If you are failing on 2 of those 3 points, design doesn't do much for you but will certainly take the blame.

Design is just notes and drill dots on a page until the organizational structure provides the resources to accomplish it and the instructional staff makes it happen. Someone just doesn't become a bad or good designer just because it is drum corps and not marching band. The whole package needs to be right.