Disrespect Between Members of Different Eras

[cowtown]

As an old timer, when I gross or gripe about corps I hope none of you current marching members take it personally. I’m talking about your staff, mostly people from my generation. I have the utmost respect and admiration for the marchers of any generation at any level. You are all out there, giving your best, working together trying to put something great on the field. I’m sorry if I offended any of you or if you took it personally, it was never my intent. My intent was to let your staff know what I, as a fan, am looking for or what I like and don’t like. and I expect many will disagree with my opinions but I am highly opinionate and rather free with expressing them - as I hope all of your are also.

Sometime I think that the folks that have been doing this the longest are the worst offenders in losing sight of their roots – they’re bored, they’ve seen it all, they try to keep it fresh for themselves which pushes them further and further from the heart of the activity and loses us that are more causally involved

I don’t want to go back in time, I would still enjoy the music of a 80s style show but the drill would bore me. There are aspect of 80s drill that I do like and think still have merit but unfortunately have been pushed aside. To me, it’s all about balance. I’d like to see aspects of all generations of corps but currently I don’t. And I do think too much has been given up for the sake of just trying to look new. Just as an example – I’d love to see more of the hyper, always spinning or tossing 80s style guard work but I hear that corps don’t look kindly on the 80s style guard because its dated. So its gone. It wasn’t bad, it wasn’t easy and much of it was very effective but it was dated…so out if goes completely. Bye-Bye

I totality get why kids today would not dig 70s or 80s corps more so if your reference point is DVD, I think a better way to connect with old school corps is through audio – that was their strength and the technology that captured it was not as comparatively primitive. But even I cringe at the cheesiness of theme from Rocky or Star Wars. Personally, I’m not really offended by kids not getting shows of the past – they just don’t get it, so what. It’s their time now. Growing up, I didn’t get the Beatles. I needed to mature and develop my own context to appreciate them. Parents aren’t suppose to like their kids music – but that’s the rub in Drum Corp. The kids don’t really have the bucks to support the activity like they can with a rock band – so corps do have to please those with the pockets too, the parents and older generation. and that will always be a difficult balancing act, pleasing all generation...and that is why there needs to be more balance...a little for me, a little for you and something for them = little more for all of us

[craiga]

Well, since I marched over 25 years ago, I guess I would be considered an "old timer" in here. This is what I'll say: In 1977, drum corps were exciting, in your face, precise, loud, awe-inspiring, and the corps were filled with kids who wanted to kick A55!

In 2007, however, I find drum corps to be exciting, in your face, precise, loud, awe-inspiring, and the corps are filled with kids who want to kick A55!

Many of those old corps were GREAT........times change and many of the present corps are GREAT as well.

'nuff said! B)

Craig

[JimF-LowBari]

I think it's a natural thing, as someone else pointed out in relation to music. Everyone tends to prefer the culture that they experienced when they were in their teens and early twenties. It's certainly nothing new to the world, and I don't think we'll escape it anytime soon. What I really have fun pondering is wondering how exactly culture will change so that I become estranged from it. What new developments will occur in the future that will make music unappealing to me? I'm really actually curious.

But Brian I'm not talking about just preferring one thing over another. I'm talking about people slamming what they don't prefer. Quite the opposite of pondering the future, which I enjoy myself. (Even with my collection of 70s popular music on CD. :P )

Interesting how many younger people posted that they attack in self defense. When I came back to corps a few years ago I started a thread asking why shows have to have themes today. I compared themeless late 70s shows to today and made the mistake of saying I preferred shows from my era. Next 4 out of 5 posts claimed I was insulted todays shows when I said nothing of the kind.

IMO, the slams go both ways on DCP and most involve lack of respect for personal opinion.

[supersop]

OYE! Where to start?????

Let's examine the differences between the era's.

1) Tick system and pre-DCI members were heavily regulated in regards to show design. RULES RULES RULES. This all came from AL/VFW and remained in place during the early years of DCI. There were rules about high mark time, mandatory company fronts, no grounding of equipment etc etc etc.

2) Post tick sytem members were GRADUALLY able to do just about anything they wanted. No out of bounds, full pits, no concert tune, no mandatory drum solos, no symmetrical drill ..............

Next, current members (Post 2000). I'm going to put my own spin on this because ..... I can. I marched starting in 1985 and ended in 1990. The first show I ever heard that came prior to my marching was 1984 Spirit .. and guess what? I didn't hear it until 1989. Later that summer I bought the cassettes of 1984. That was my first step in learning the history of drum corps. It took me the better part of 20 years to learn about where drum corps came from and all the great shows that came before me. Although, current members have better resources at their fingertips ... I'd venture to say with confidence that they have no clue what went on before them other than a very few select shows.

That's why some of these polls crack me up. The newer members know nothing about the past (in general). The older members have seen it all. For those in the know, they all hold the mid 80's/early 90's to be the "GOLDEN ERA" of drum corps. For the hardline old schoolers.... they fully recognize that drum corps prior to 1982 is a completely different activity from post 1983. They loved the rules that were in place and have a lot of VALID reasons to believe that that's the best drum corps on earth. Because they believe that so fully, most of them march Alumni corps or follow the alumni corps activity avidly. I think those of us who marched during the "Golden Era" have a huge respect for what came before us, what we did ourselves, and what came after us. I do believe those of us from that era are highly critical of the changes that have taken place in the past 7 years. Take it for what it's worth .. argue your points ... it's all good. Most of the rants the Old Schoolers and Gold Schoolers go off on, are not meant for the new schoolers. They're mostly directed at design staffs and the people who actually make the votes. Grain of salt my friends.

I say, give the new schoolers time to educate themselves and get a few more years under their belts to form their own opinions. Beating them over the head isn't going to help your cause. I'm sure that when they're 35 or older, and look back at what they did they'll see alot of things differently. Just show each other respect and 95% of the crap will fall by the wayside.

[Medeabrass]

As an old timer, when I gross or gripe about corps I hope none of you current marching members take it personally. I’m talking about your staff, mostly people from my generation. I have the utmost respect and admiration for the marchers of any generation at any level. You are all out there, giving your best, working together trying to put something great on the field. I’m sorry if I offended any of you or if you took it personally, it was never my intent. My intent was to let your staff know what I, as a fan, am looking for or what I like and don’t like. and I expect many will disagree with my opinions but I am highly opinionate and rather free with expressing them - as I hope all of your are also.

I really do understand where you're coming from because I have a tendency to get upset about things like amps and the like today. I try to remind myself that even though you think you're criticizing the staff, it's the kids who are putting themselves out there so they are the ones who feel the impact of the booing and the griping. Venting on a board is better but some of the outright disrespect and harsh criticism really gets on my nerves. Can't we discuss our preferences with some class (rhetorical..I'm not aiming this at you in particular)?

You might be thinking to yourself, "oh how I feel sorry for these kids. If only their staff would put out a product like WE had then they could be proud of themselves and enjoy what they're doing." The fact is, most of the time, the kids really do enjoy the product they have so griping about the staff is still taken personally especially if you're vocalizing it in the stadium. If a kid didn't like how a corps did things, they probably wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to be a part of that organization.

When I think about it, griping on boards or booing at shows probably has very little effect on the staffs' decisions. If you really want to have an influence, how 'bout becoming a big booster of a corps that you like. If that corps starts to go a direction you don't like, you can politely disagree and tell them your money is going elsewhere. On a smaller scale, you can do this with your souvie purchases.

Good point about how the staffs are getting bored...that's an interesting way of looking at the "evolution" we see.

[Iplaytimpani]

OYE! Where to start?????

Let's examine the differences between the era's.

1) Tick system and pre-DCI members were heavily regulated in regards to show design. RULES RULES RULES. This all came from AL/VFW and remained in place during the early years of DCI. There were rules about high mark time, mandatory company fronts, no grounding of equipment etc etc etc.

2) Post tick sytem members were GRADUALLY able to do just about anything they wanted. No out of bounds, full pits, no concert tune, no mandatory drum solos, no symmetrical drill ..............

Next, current members (Post 2000). I'm going to put my own spin on this because ..... I can. I marched starting in 1985 and ended in 1990. The first show I ever heard that came prior to my marching was 1984 Spirit .. and guess what? I didn't hear it until 1989. Later that summer I bought the cassettes of 1984. That was my first step in learning the history of drum corps. It took me the better part of 20 years to learn about where drum corps came from and all the great shows that came before me. Although, current members have better resources at their fingertips ... I'd venture to say with confidence that they have no clue what went on before them other than a very few select shows.

That's why some of these polls crack me up. The newer members know nothing about the past (in general). The older members have seen it all. For those in the know, they all hold the mid 80's/early 90's to be the "GOLDEN ERA" of drum corps. For the hardline old schoolers.... they fully recognize that drum corps prior to 1982 is a completely different activity from post 1983. They loved the rules that were in place and have a lot of VALID reasons to believe that that's the best drum corps on earth. Because they believe that so fully, most of them march Alumni corps or follow the alumni corps activity avidly. I think those of us who marched during the "Golden Era" have a huge respect for what came before us, what we did ourselves, and what came after us. I do believe those of us from that era are highly critical of the changes that have taken place in the past 7 years. Take it for what it's worth .. argue your points ... it's all good. Most of the rants the Old Schoolers and Gold Schoolers go off on, are not meant for the new schoolers. They're mostly directed at design staffs and the people who actually make the votes. Grain of salt my friends.

I say, give the new schoolers time to educate themselves and get a few more years under their belts to form their own opinions. Beating them over the head isn't going to help your cause. I'm sure that when they're 35 or older, and look back at what they did they'll see alot of things differently. Just show each other respect and 95% of the crap will fall by the wayside.

Gonna disagree with some things here Dan. Mostly just that the new schoolers don't know their history. I'm not a walking DCI/drum corps information box like some of the old schoolers, but I think I do a pretty darn good job of knowing my roots, and not being afraid to seek it out if I don't know it. And many new schoolers are very much the same. We just don't get the enjoyment out of the old school shows, in general, as we're used to something different. So I know your comment is a general statement about the education of current DCIers, but I don't think it's entirely accurate.

But very rarely will you see a new age marcher rip the old. We just know better. It's a respect thing. And even Einsteins rip, I have a guess ( I don't remember where it was exactly or anything) that it was either in retaliation to someone else taking a cheap shot at current corps, or is out of context here as often his stuff seems to be made in jest and not taken at face value.

My last point is to all that have mentioned this. It's said that all these cheap shots and whatever or more directed for current staffs and people of that nature. But why? Kids today seem to be enjoying what they do. Obviously the staff is giving them the vehicle to get there. Who are you guys to say that this staff or that staff isn't doing an adequate job with drum corps. And when are your resumes being submitted to fix it?

Edited May 11, 2007 by Iplaytimpani

[dccorpsfan]

I wonder what folks from the early VFW/AL era had to say about DCI, especially in the mid to late 70's when corps like the Blue Devils were dominaing with shows that had strong jazz influences.

[Medeabrass]

I wonder what folks from the early VFW/AL era had to say about DCI, especially in the mid to late 70's when corps like the Blue Devils were dominaing with shows that had strong jazz influences.

I've asked this question many times before. I'm sure many hated it. They probably hated anything that wasn't a Sousa march too. Anything other than straight lines was probably frowned upon. I wonder what they thought about valves and rotors.

[jjeffeory]

What? People who marched in the past bash modern corps ALL THE TIME. If anything if a current marcher says anything it's more in defense. There's plenty of respect, but of course if someone constantly bashes what you do (many times in a pretty ignorant fashion) then there's going to be a backlash.

"What? People who marched in the past bash modern corps ALL THE TIME." Yes, I agree.... HOWEVER, current marchers bash older shows all the time, too. It works both ways. Usually the current marchers who bash seem a little smug and superior. The "old timers" are bad too, I agree. BUT it's a two way street on the bashing AND the respect. It's amazing to me that you see it that way. As far as I'm concerned, I call it like I see it. The modern marchers work their butts of, and so did all that came before them.

[jjeffeory]

OYE! Where to start?????

Let's examine the differences between the era's.

1) Tick system and pre-DCI members were heavily regulated in regards to show design. RULES RULES RULES. This all came from AL/VFW and remained in place during the early years of DCI. There were rules about high mark time, mandatory company fronts, no grounding of equipment etc etc etc.

2) Post tick sytem members were GRADUALLY able to do just about anything they wanted. No out of bounds, full pits, no concert tune, no mandatory drum solos, no symmetrical drill ..............

Next, current members (Post 2000). I'm going to put my own spin on this because ..... I can. I marched starting in 1985 and ended in 1990. The first show I ever heard that came prior to my marching was 1984 Spirit .. and guess what? I didn't hear it until 1989. Later that summer I bought the cassettes of 1984. That was my first step in learning the history of drum corps. It took me the better part of 20 years to learn about where drum corps came from and all the great shows that came before me. Although, current members have better resources at their fingertips ... I'd venture to say with confidence that they have no clue what went on before them other than a very few select shows.

That's why some of these polls crack me up. The newer members know nothing about the past (in general). The older members have seen it all. For those in the know, they all hold the mid 80's/early 90's to be the "GOLDEN ERA" of drum corps. For the hardline old schoolers.... they fully recognize that drum corps prior to 1982 is a completely different activity from post 1983. They loved the rules that were in place and have a lot of VALID reasons to believe that that's the best drum corps on earth. Because they believe that so fully, most of them march Alumni corps or follow the alumni corps activity avidly. I think those of us who marched during the "Golden Era" have a huge respect for what came before us, what we did ourselves, and what came after us. I do believe those of us from that era are highly critical of the changes that have taken place in the past 7 years. Take it for what it's worth .. argue your points ... it's all good. Most of the rants the Old Schoolers and Gold Schoolers go off on, are not meant for the new schoolers. They're mostly directed at design staffs and the people who actually make the votes. Grain of salt my friends.

I say, give the new schoolers time to educate themselves and get a few more years under their belts to form their own opinions. Beating them over the head isn't going to help your cause. I'm sure that when they're 35 or older, and look back at what they did they'll see alot of things differently. Just show each other respect and 95% of the crap will fall by the wayside.

OMG, I totally agree with this. I'm a "Golden Schooler!"