No Detailed Recaps

[perc2100]

Imagine this. Say I put in the time and effort, completed training and trialing, and became a DCI judge for the 2014 season. The Blue Devils are clearly leading the pack by spreads in every caption; deservedly so, based on what I see as a spectator several times. But when my first judging assignment takes place at some obscure mid-July show, there are a few uncharacteristic flaws in their performance in my caption, and a rival corps gives the performance of their lives which I find deserving of a 0.1 edge over BD that night. Am I going to make that call? If I do, it will most likely be the last DCI show I judge. There are procedures in place for both corps and judge administrators to review individual judge performance, and it is basically my word against the rest of the activity at this point.

Now, take that scenario and change "2014" to "2016". Now, we no longer have the published recaps to conform to. I can make that call in mid-July, and live to judge another day when BD is back in their usual form. My numbers will be more of a reflection of what I observe that day, not what I observed in recaps published the day before.

FWIW I know of at least one judge who did exactly that in 2014 (still judging :-P ).

Maybe I give judges too much credit, or maybe I happen to know judges who have no problem telling Chandler that their show may be great once changes are put in, but tonight Cadets are better. There are of course weak judges, but IMO DCI shouldn't change the system to conform for the low-end: they should better train the low end and let this aspect of the system stand.

I'll be curious to hear how this plays out in 2016: in this day-and-age can staffers keep scores a secret from the judges, can judges find scores as easily as they want, will this change anyone's perception of the system (because that's what we're REALLY talking about - not changing policy, but changing something so the perception is different)?

[perc2100]

But the part I underlined - is that not what some would define as "slotting"?

Maybe. See, as with all things in life, there is no black/white or cut/dry. If judges have legit intelligent discourse with each other to discus philosophy or what-not, judges changing minds isn't "slotting" it's more a judge becoming better informed (I also mentioned maybe the judge changes nothing as far as how they score/rank the groups).

I see slotting more of what people on here equate to "Blue Devils scored high last night, they continue to score high tonight even though I THINK Crown has a better show." I've always thought that to a certain extent publishing recaps ASAP to the entire world keeps the judges "honest" to an extent. Not only will they get heat from corps in critique (tape BETTER properly explain the number!), and not only will the judges get heat from DCI Judge Admin (if BD is ticked off with their number from you and complains to the Admin to get you off the 'important' panels, your tape really better justify the number), but the entire general public will know: how you score groups, what your trends are, how your numbers management is, if you obviously seem to favor groups or disfavor groups, if your content/achievement subs almost ALWAYS line up, if you spend the entire season with Cadets 1 Crown 2 Blue Devils 3, etc.

This change will keep the public end of that process out of the equation and maybe create a more closed-door atmosphere/perception about judging. That feels like a step back to the previous millennium which is never a great idea

[BillH]

Maybe. See, as with all things in life, there is no black/white or cut/dry. If judges have legit intelligent discourse with each other to discus philosophy or what-not, judges changing minds isn't "slotting" it's more a judge becoming better informed (I also mentioned maybe the judge changes nothing as far as how they score/rank the groups).

I see slotting more of what people on here equate to "Blue Devils scored high last night, they continue to score high tonight even though I THINK Crown has a better show." I've always thought that to a certain extent publishing recaps ASAP to the entire world keeps the judges "honest" to an extent. Not only will they get heat from corps in critique (tape BETTER properly explain the number!), and not only will the judges get heat from DCI Judge Admin (if BD is ticked off with their number from you and complains to the Admin to get you off the 'important' panels, your tape really better justify the number), but the entire general public will know: how you score groups, what your trends are, how your numbers management is, if you obviously seem to favor groups or disfavor groups, if your content/achievement subs almost ALWAYS line up, if you spend the entire season with Cadets 1 Crown 2 Blue Devils 3, etc.

This change will keep the public end of that process out of the equation and maybe create a more closed-door atmosphere/perception about judging. That feels like a step back to the previous millennium which is never a great idea

I agree, especially if staff members are not given access to recaps, at least by caption. If the responsibility of the judge is to Rank and Rate their assigned caption using the criteria on the sheet, then keeping score differences private removes any chance for establishing accountability or even informed discussions about the ranking and rating between judges and staff. This then smacks of, "The judge will give you a number from 1-10 or 1-20 in their caption and you must accept that it is correct relative to your competition," No discussions like, "I see you have us in upper box 3 and them in lower box 4. What specific attributes are you seeing/hearing that make up that difference? did you note that we are doing x, also, which may make you reconsider next time?"

Not sure I understand the goal here, unless we are going to make the activity non-competitive or judges Festival-style.

[xandandl]

Well said, Mr. Bill.

When I first heard the proposal, I flashbacked to the days of BOA not announcing numeric scores to the public until a few months after Grand Nationals.

Edited February 3, 2016 by xandandl

[garfield]

I agree, especially if staff members are not given access to recaps, at least by caption. If the responsibility of the judge is to Rank and Rate their assigned caption using the criteria on the sheet, then keeping score differences private removes any chance for establishing accountability or even informed discussions about the ranking and rating between judges and staff. This then smacks of, "The judge will give you a number from 1-10 or 1-20 in their caption and you must accept that it is correct relative to your competition," No discussions like, "I see you have us in upper box 3 and them in lower box 4. What specific attributes are you seeing/hearing that make up that difference? did you note that we are doing x, also, which may make you reconsider next time?"

Not sure I understand the goal here, unless we are going to make the activity non-competitive or judges Festival-style.

And the sooner they admit it and move on the better, IMO. Entertainment sells tickets. Scores push excellence that then sells tickets. Scores are only important to marching members, corps staff, and geeks on DCP.

You heard it here, multiple times. Eventually, only the regionals and finals week will be scored.

[/sarcasm?]

[Everyfan]

Imagine this. Say I put in the time and effort, completed training and trialing, and became a DCI judge for the 2014 season. The Blue Devils are clearly leading the pack by spreads in every caption; deservedly so, based on what I see as a spectator several times. But when my first judging assignment takes place at some obscure mid-July show, there are a few uncharacteristic flaws in their performance in my caption, and a rival corps gives the performance of their lives which I find deserving of a 0.1 edge over BD that night. Am I going to make that call? If I do, it will most likely be the last DCI show I judge. There are procedures in place for both corps and judge administrators to review individual judge performance, and it is basically my word against the rest of the activity at this point.

Now, take that scenario and change "2014" to "2016". Now, we no longer have the published recaps to conform to. I can make that call in mid-July, and live to judge another day when BD is back in their usual form. My numbers will be more of a reflection of what I observe that day, not what I observed in recaps published the day before.

As long as you have your sheets and your tapes to back you up, I see no issue here. Scores fluctuate all the time based on individual performances. Did you miss finals last year?

[yogitom]

And the sooner they admit it and move on the better, IMO. Entertainment sells tickets. Scores push excellence that then sells tickets. Scores are only important to marching members, corps staff, and geeks on DCP.

You heard it here, multiple times. Eventually, only the regionals and finals week will be scored.

[/sarcasm?]

Then it wouldn't be a competition.

[rpbobcat]

Don't know if anyone has brought this up yet.

Its hard reading through 22 pages of posts.

If I'm reading this correctly,a corps will be able to see their own recap,but that's all.

To me that takes away the ability of a corps to see how they "stack up" against other corps.

You would only know that you won or last and by how much.

You wouldn't be able to compare "catagories" to see where you're weaker or stronger then your competitors.

[N.E. Brigand]

I think part of it is bleeding over from circuits like USSBA, where score increases from week to week have been virtually legislated into the system.

Unlike BoA, where for instance in 2014 I know of one band that scored 72.95 on Sep. 20 and 71.50 on Nov. 14. I saw both performances and the group had definitely improved significantly over those eight weeks. Try to imagine Crown getting a lower score at Finals than in June!

Edited February 3, 2016 by N.E. Brigand

[Sideways]

Unlike BoA, where for instance in 2014 I know of one band that scored 72.95 on Sep. 20 and 71.50 on Nov. 14. I saw both performances and the group had definitely improved significantly over those eight weeks. Try to imagine Crown getting a lower score at Finals than in June!

Even though the same sheets are used BoA regionals and grand nationals are, for all practical purposes, judged on very different scales.