Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[BDCorno]

9 minutes ago, SNModdison said:

Not chasing me away. The "BD does nothing" thing does get old; it's the same thing every year. I watch drum corps because they are amazing. What Crown, SCV, and Bluecoats do is amazing. The Blue Devils aren't my cup of tea, and haven't been for a long time *however, 2014 was great). My hope is that corps keep entertaining me, which some still do, from top to bottom. I always want to love the Blue Devils, as they used to be one of my, if not my favorite drum corps. This show just doesn't do it for me, not even in the least. I'd love to see them, as well as every drum corps live, but that isn't too terribly feasible for a lot of people, so we watch online. I will hold on to my hope that I have every year: please let an awesome and entertaining show win. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't.

It's too bad you can't see them live...they pack so much into their show, you simply can't see it all on video, and depending on who is directing the camera calls, you can miss a lot. The ballad is incredible in person, just immense, and I don't get choked up often but that gets me. I'm sure it's a bit more meaningful to alumni like myself, with all the references to the past as well. Didn't particularly like the show at all when I saw the first snippets from camp, but it's going to rival 2014 when all is said and done, which is saying a lot. My favorite show as well. 

SCV is dynamite in person as well. They could win, but if they do, they're going to have to be almost perfect. Love that, when these two corps push each other to new heights. Crown still may have a say, but the singer thing REALLY isn't my cup of tea. Fantastic horn line, much better percussion, but their guard might keep them out of the top two. Same with Coats. Weaker guard this year, but a great drum line, outstanding horn book, and entertaining program. It's going to be a great finals. Wonder if Boston can catch Cavies....hmmm.

Edited July 24, 2017 by BDCorno

[Stu]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

no it's not. DCI has reveleaed the sheets when redone, posted videos of judges working shows and talking about what they are looking for. it comes down to people refusing to accept their personal preference isn't the "in thing" anymore.

 

trust me, i got hung up on the stuff 10 years ago. I took the time to learn, and DCi did some great work providing information a few years ago.

 

Plus, let's be honest....the more you try to do, the more you expose yourself to getting nailed. risk/reward...you only get so iuch credit for trying.

And therein is the flaw! DCI and the designers have created a performance outlet in which people need to receive a music and visual tutorial in order to understand what in the heck is going on. And those who fork out $600+ dollars in tickets, motel, transportation, and food to attend Finals are not looking to receive education on the nuisances of the art by studying the adjudication sheets in order to grasp the design concepts, they fork out all that money to be flat entertained!

[Tim K]

On 7/8/2017 at 5:20 PM, Stu said:

According to many of the self-proclaimed experts who post on this site: DCI is, and should be, 'All About the Visual' with 'Sound being a mere backdrop enhancement the the Almighty Visual'. And according to them the rest of us who differ are kermudgens with inferior opinions. Just letting you know that has been the case for about a decade or so.

Of course some of the experts who defend this are the same ones who are critical of old school corps that stopped at certain points between musical numbers and are critical of "concert" pieces.

[Jeff Ream]

19 minutes ago, Stu said:

And therein is the flaw! DCI and the designers have created a performance outlet in which people need to receive a music and visual tutorial in order to understand what in the heck is going on. And those who fork out $600+ dollars in tickets, motel, transportation, and food to attend Finals are not looking to receive education on the nuisances of the art by studying the adjudication sheets in order to grasp the design concepts, they fork out all that money to be flat entertained!

you dont need a tutorial to be honest. Simple common sense.

 

if it's 2nd and 25 in football, do you run up the gut or do you go with 5 wideouts to give yourself options to pick up more yards?

 

in drum corps if you run and gun for 9 out of 11 minutes playing a page full of black, will you get cleaner than someone who shows you they can do a skill #### close to perfect and move on to show you another one? 

 

I know the answer won't be popular but it's option B.

[JKT90]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

you dont need a tutorial to be honest. Simple common sense.

 

if it's 2nd and 25 in football, do you run up the gut or do you go with 5 wideouts to give yourself options to pick up more yards?

 

in drum corps if you run and gun for 9 out of 11 minutes playing a page full of black, will you get cleaner than someone who shows you they can do a skill #### close to perfect and move on to show you another one? 

 

I know the answer won't be popular but it's option B.

I totally missed your point...and huge college football fan here. 

[Hirsbrunner]

It's so hard to compare the top shows. It's apples and oranges. This is me looking at the books semi-objectively but that's just how my brain works, not necessarily how it is or should be judged. 

To take with a grain of salt:

I watched some posted vids of both SCVs and BDs show today and compared how much their hornlines play and how much they move and play.

BDs book has them playing 7:54 of their show and SCVs book has them playing 6:34 of their show (including solos and small ensembles for both corps). With the exception of Bumblebee and some of the closer, BDs book is at slower tempos, compared to SCVs faster, note-filled show. 

BD moves and plays about 2:48 of their show. SCV moves and plays about 1:55 of theirs, which surprised me. Vanguard has added a lot of technique to their horn book this year but is moving less when they play. That being said BDs movement is at slower tempos and apart from their usual rectangle rotation, have less velocity. SCV on the other hand is usually performing higher velocity movement with high physical demand when they do move and play. I also don't see physical demand as the main determining factor of visual content. 

I considered "moving and playing" to be marching, or anything that decently changed a performers left to right or front to back. If it was lower body visual that didn't seem intensive I did not consider it to be " moving and playing (which is subjective). I also was a lot easier on BD on the subjective decisions, given that they have a more individualized visual book and because I'm and SCV homer. So I might have given BD a few extra seconds here and there that I didn't give to Vanguard but it wouldn't be by much. 

In a way SCV could be considered more guilty than BD this year for the park-and-blow and chop-and-bop, but BD still gets a worse hit for it from many. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Hirsbrunner

[Jeff Ream]

13 minutes ago, JKT90 said:

I totally missed your point...and huge college football fan here. 

if you need 25 yards, are you going to send your fullback up the middle to gain 20 of those yards, or have 5 receivers that give an array of options to pick up most of the yards you need?

[N.E. Brigand]

43 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

No it's not. DCI has reveleaed the sheets when redone, posted videos of judges working shows and talking about what they are looking for. it comes down to people refusing to accept their personal preference isn't the "in thing" anymore.

Trust me, i got hung up on the stuff 10 years ago. I took the time to learn, and DCi did some great work providing information a few years ago.

Plus, let's be honest....the more you try to do, the more you expose yourself to getting nailed. risk/reward...you only get so much credit for trying.

As someone who works in the arts, I don't blame the customers when they're confused by our product. I recognize that I'm not doing enough education and public relations. We pitched it as a comedy, but it plays more seriously. Or they're offended by the graphic content, which we should have anticipated and noted in advance. Or they're confused about some aspect of the production that we ought to have explained in the playbill. And so on.

That said, DCI's attendance by all accounts is growing, so this may not be much of a problem.

But if I'm a new fan of the activity who wants to know more about what is considered "good" and "bad" in drum corps, even if, like you, I'm willing to put in the work, where on DCI's website can I find the judging sheets? Or any explanation of what the judges are looking for? From the home page, the only likely path seems to be "About" > "Introduction", which lead you to a video that's about ten years old ("from its modest beginning more than three decades ago") and some information pitched at potential sponsors, because it mostly talks about how many people DCI serves.

Which is all well and good, but every time the company I work for produces a play, by comparison, we include an online information guide about it, and we have a pre-show talk before every performance, and offer behind-the-scenes events where people who want it even more in-depth detail (watch a rehearsal, get an explanation of the costumes from the designer, etc.), and all of this is easily found on our website.

[bluesman]

On 7/8/2017 at 3:53 PM, mirrormen said:

Not sure your point. this approach bothered me 10 years ago, but it seems to be getting worse. 

Same here.  And yes more and more corps are doing less and less playing while moving.  Apparently that's what it takes to win these days.  

[bluesman]

On 7/8/2017 at 4:02 PM, HockeyDad said:

Is it just you?  No. BUT, also, is it just BD?  No. All of today's corps do chop and paste (as you call it) arrangements. Go watch or listen to SCV's 1982 or 1983 opener. Compare that to what Crown does with it this year. Total chop and paste. That's just one example. 

Standing and Playing AKA "park n blow":  I challenge you to find me a corps that doesn't stop for the highly technical phrases. Maybe BD does it more, but it's a matter of how much versus they do it and others don't. 

Do they care what the audience likes?  Haha, do any of them?  They are arranging and playing for the judges. Do I like this?  Actually, I HATE it. 

They all do what BD does. Thing is, BD usually does it better. 

I don't think the Blue Devils park and bar that much more than other corps but they certainly led the way. And because they won with that formula the other Drum Corps followed.  Look at just how much playing on the move Crown did in 2012.... then look at how much less of it they did in their Gold medal show in 2013.  So.... if you can't beat em' join em'.

It seems that less is more when comes to winning a DCI World Championship.

Edited July 24, 2017 by bluesman