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Again with the Irony. As if any corps leadership would take your advice on what choices to make. This isn't RAMD but there are hundreds of DCPers that know your history and are laughing their butts off at your recent posts....

Excellent post. One correction, though....it applies primarily to instrumentation. You don't see every single world-class corps using props or doing a pre-show. But you do see every WC unit using Bb/F brass, pit amplification and electronic instruments.

Please disabuse me of any assumptions on my part here, but you went into a situation without apparently talking beforehand with the other visual staff about what approaches to drill/technique you were going to incorporate so as to all be on the same page? What kind of hierarchy was set up beforehand as far as the visual staff was concerned? I don't care if you are walking into a scene with all 22 year olds on a staff with no previous drum corps experience, much less top 12 experience, jumping in like that guns blazing (whether or not you were aware that was the way your approach was going to come off) is only going to end badly for you and everyone else. I would suggest that despite learning whatever info you gleaned from all the names you are dropping like so many loose toothpicks, you never really learned about the process. Just like everything else in this activity, visual instruction should be approached with a build up of knowledge, which acknowledges and uses everything that came before, but by all means, let's roll things back to 1980.

we all want Pioneer to be better. we just dont take shots at people and other corps along the way

No Howdy. It isn't. The corps won visual ensemble that night, not to mention a DCI championship. THAT is worth a 1000 words. All of the skills you listed are important, but those skills are also taught in the dot system... they are just gone about in a different way, but that is not the point. As many people have said on here before, ANY SYSTEM WORKS AS LONG AS YOU DESIGN & TEACH IT WELL. Conversely, any system can fail if you don't design and teach it well. If you cannot realize that Howdy, then you are clearly in over your head in the topic that you started. Furthermore, being dirty early season is a by-product of the demand that is evident in the shows these days. Honestly, as much as I hate to see dirt on DVD's, that (to a certain extent) is a product of the demands of shows these days too. If you do more, there is generally going to be more ticks... but there is room for more achievement too. You can achieve more than a corps that is cleaner than you simply by the "how much" that it is you do. Finally, if you are as smart as you say you are and have this whole drum corps thing figured out, then why don't you start your own corps and take it to the top? So far all we know of you is you are someone that got canned from Pioneer a couple of years ago and now spends a bunch of time bashing them...when you are not too busy being a self-promoter or espousing your own greatness that is.

That's the truth!

True - not all corps participate in all aspects of the arms race. Quite a few have used props from time to time and I would not be surprised to see more in the future. The pre-show rules are relatively new and I expect to see more preshows - and more elaborate ones - in the near future. All of this continues to escalate costs. Another financial angle: not only is it increasingly difficult to keep up for the current corps, each change also raises the bar on the cost of entry for newer corps to start-up or move-up into World Class.

I heard INT is ONLY marching snares this year

that hornline better know the RMFL dynamic marking

The concept of an "arms race" is so apropos to a discussion of rules changes. Every time there is a rules change, one of the arguments in favor: no one is forcing corps ABC to use X that is now legal. It doesn't matter if we're talking about amps, narration, Bb instruments, number of members, pre-show performances or props. It seems that every rule change turns into an arms race. The top guys are going to do X because they now can and everyone else is going to do X because they feel they need to keep up. Throw in the increasing staff sizes compared to BITD and the ever changing uniforms (2 more forms of the arms race) and you see the same phenomenon. Just like the Cold War, in every arms race, one or more participants will eventually run out of the financial ability to continue.

(RE) for every action there is a reaction Fugue in G Minor (Little Fugue)... Bach See who else played this Lux Aurumque... Eric Whitacre See who else played this Lollapalooza... Adams The beat my heart skipped A House Is Not a Home... Burt Bacharach Summer of 77... Burt Bacharach Walk On By... Burt Bacharach One Less Bell To Answer... Burt Bacharach Woman... Burt Bacharach I Say A Little Prayer... Burt Bacharach Wives And Lovers... Burt Bacharach God Give Me Strength... Burt Bacharach An English Folk Song Suite First Suite in Eb... Gustav Holst See who else played this English folk song suite... Ralph Vaughn Williams See who else played this Shepherds Hay/Molly on the Shore... Percy Grainger Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus... Ralph Vaughn Williams Rebourne Brave New World Creep... Radiohead Deus Ex Machina... Michael Daugherty Harvest... John Mackey Revolution Selections from Les Miserables... Alain Boublil & Claude-Michel Schonberg See who else played this 1812 Overture... Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky See who else played this Between angels and Demons Angels in the Architecture... Frank Ticheli Angels and Demons... Hans Zimmer Rach Star We Will Rock You... Brian May (Queen) See who else played this Iron Man... Black Sabbath Piano Concerto No. 2... Rachmaninoff See who else played this Symphonic Dances... Rachmaninoff See who else played this Paint it Black... Keith Richards & Mick Jagger (Rolling Stones) See who else played this Piano Concerto No. 1... Emerson (Emerson Lake and Palmer) See who else played this Bohemian Rhapsody... Freddie Mercury (Queen) See who else played this Pandora, a Dark Gift Selections from Joseph Vargo Selections from William Piotrowski Selections from Hans Zimmer Selections from Michiru Yamane Selections from David Gillingham Selections from Alex North Selections from Thomas Newman XtraordinarY Footprints... Wayne Shorter Jungle Tango... Jazz Mandolin Project Nature Boy... Eden Ahbez DECEPTION: The Jagged Edge Swan Lake... Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky See who else played this Danza de los Duendes... Nancy Galbraith See who else played this The Swan from Carnival of the Animals... Camille Saint-Saens See who else played this Mind Heist... Zack Hemsey Renewal Episode:Prelude... Nando Lauria Spinning Wheel... David Clayton Thomas Hallelujah... Leonard Cohen Back Home... Nando Lauria Ursa Major... Chuck Naffier My Mortal Beloved: When night meets day... I shall meet my beloved Original Music... Don Hill Moonlight Sonata... Ludwig Van Beethoven Can't Help Falling in Love... Luigi Creatore Romeo & Juliet... Peter Tchaikovsky Requiem... Giuseppe Verdi Petal Tones New York Morning New York, New York from the musical "On the Town"... Leonard Bernstein See who else played this Oh What a Beautiful Morning from the musical "Oklahoma!"... Rogers/HammersteinSee who else played this New York Mourning... Robert W. Smith Requiem... Robert W. Smith Empire State of Mind... Alicia Keyes The Forty Thieves: An Ancient Tale of Spices, Toxins, and Perfumes Octabones... PercaDu Spices, Perfumes, and Toxins... Avner Dorman Push, Pull, Twist, Turn Lauds (Praise High Day)... Ron Nelson Push... Robert W Smith See who else played this Adagietto, Symphony No.5... Gustav Mahler See who else played this The Mechanical Ballet... Philip Glass Serenada Schizophrana... Danny Elfman See who else played this Juliet East of Eden... Lee Holdridge Requiem... Giuseppe Verdi Requiem... Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Love Theme from Romeo & Juliet (A Time For Us)... by Nino Rota Romeo & Juliet... Sergei Prokofiev Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral (from Lohengrin)... by Richard Wagner Celebrate Original Music The Devil's Staircase Music of Samuel Barber Music of Avner Dorman Etude 13:The Devils Staircase... Gyorgy Ligeti ATL Confidential: A Tribute to Film Noir Harlem Nocturne... Earle Hagen and Dick Rogers See who else played this Sinvitation 7 Judith (Lust and Envy)... A Perfect Circle Sin of Pride... Chuck Naffier Sin of Greed... (includes Money for Nothing, Money, and the Theme from Scrooged) Sin of Gluttony and Sloth... Naffier, Johnson, staff et al 160 BPM (Wrath)... Hans Zimmer The Road Home The Old Church from Prairie Songs, No. 6... Stephen Paulus China Gates... John Adams Memory, 2002 from Nepomuk’s Dances, 3rd mvt... Marcelo Zarvos Muted and Sensuous from Four Piano Blues, 3rd mvt... Aaron Copland Mama... Edgar Meyer

I respectfully think that having the same corps win the title year after year after year is not a good result for marketing any competitive "world championship" event to the general public. Please understand, I'm not saying the Bucaneers' recent consecutive DCA titles were not well-deserved, they certainly were. But from an overall DCA/drum corps activity-marketing aspect, some semblance of competitive parity is much healthier and better for any competitive league as a whole. Similarly, the worst thing that could possibly happen for the NFL is for the Steelers, for example, to win the next eight Super Bowls ... the viewership and fans would simply begin to die off. Have we begun to see that decline a little bit in the attendance of DCA? If so, do you think the fact that there has literally been no question as to who was going to win DCA in 6 years had anything to do with it? Please understand, I am not bashing one corps -- just taking a look at the overal aspects of our marketing, and how out activity not being "competitive" in terms of a champion over the course of multiple seasons could potentially harm the growth of DCA. The obvious problem with drum corps is "how" does one achieve competitive parity and make your circuit truly "competitive" so you can keep the fans interested without a staff/member draft or some other form of control over the product of the activity. Some marching band circuits accomplish this by not allowing a repeat champion in consecutive years. That wouldn't work in DCA, and I am not sure what else would. But, food for thought ... this extreme lack of parity, IMO, is potentially damaging to our activity in terms of growth of the fan base. Any other ideas how one might achieve parity without blatantly coming up with another new rule that only affects one corps?

Hello Drum Corps Family, My name is Bob "Fred" Frederick. I am the newly appointed Corps Director for the Kingsmen StarCorps from Anaheim, CA. I marched with the 1974 Anaheim Kingsmen, the 2007 Kingsmen Alumni Corps at the DCI World Championship Semi Finals (in exhibition), held in the Rose Bowl, as a member of the Bass Drumline. I was also on the field with the 2009 Kingsmen Senior Corps (I marched the American Flag). I am posting today to let everyone know that we are ramping up efforts to field a World Class Level DCI Drum and Bugle Corps for the summer of 2012. We are actively seeking members for all sections of the corps. We have rehearsals scheduled for Tuesday nights at the Los Alimitos Joint Forces Training Base, 40th Infantry Division Band Room, 4506 Doolittle Ave., Los Alimitos, CA 90702. This base is the same base that the 1972 DCI World Champion Anaheim Kingsmen rehearsed. Our ultimate goal, if I dare say, is to one day return the DCI Championship trophy to its original home. We are working out details for an Open House at the Los Alimitos rehearsal site in the next few weeks. I will, of course, post that information here when all the details are finalized. If you are interested in joining or if you have any questions you may contact me at: frets2@hotmail.com or on my cell at: (978)618-2420. Bob "Fred" Frederick Corps Director Kingsmen StarCorps Spectemur Agendo

many kids have loyalty to their corps. many kids have loyalty to a staff or philosophy. both are great, and sometimes both can be bad. All we can do is hope it works out for the best for the kids

I respectfully disagree; WCU, RCC, and JSU all have fantastic marching bands that could be labeled as "corps style", and IMO all are extremely entertaining and have well-polished shows.

If Howdy wants a real honest quote from Brubaker about dot marching, the best way to accomplish that task would be for every person who ever marched under Brubaker to make copies of their individual dot books and send them to Howdy!!!

Marchers get blasted on here all the time for changing corps or moving up the ranks, but no one seems to be upset when a corps ditches their membership to do the same. A corps ditching the marcher they had last year for a better marcher = acceptable. A marcher ditching the corps they had last year for a better corps = atrocious, and the problem with today's youth. Not saying you do this, just a general observation.

I've also wondered the same thing a few times. Madison did all kinds of different things with the drumline in the mid-late 1990s. My fav is 1998. They put the entire tenor line on snare for the opener and all but three snares on tenors for the second tune. Rememberance is the only tune they had a "normal" drumline.

It's all Major League!!! How loyal was Jerry Jones to Wade Phillips? Again it's all Major League!!!

not on here no.

George was an exceptiional instructor, and a good friend. I miss him. I agree with his statement. One of the highlights of my drum corps experience was standing next to George when Garfield performed in Atlanta in 1984.

Howdy, this is going to be my mantra until you pony up or shut up: Please provide us with a link to a video of a unit under your instruction which proves your contention. If you can provide us with such a video, and it can be freeze framed with near perfect results, then we might let up on you a bit. Otherwise your contention holds no support whatsoever.

The basic framework of this discussion is flawed. Exceptional visual requires both. I quote a visual genius: "You spend 90% of the show in transition from set to set. You maintain the form. Period. But you better be, by gawd, on your spot at the end of the move." - George Zingali

It has nothing to do with the "right here right now", nor the lack of loyalty, but with the life-long sense of accomplishment one receives that for a single moment in time, you were part of the best of the best in the world! Why did SCV secure Rennick? Simple, to place themselves in a better position to garner better players so that SCV can once again win the title! Albert Pujols wants to stay loyal to the Cardinals; but do you really think he would feel that way if the Cardinals were perennial cellar-dwellers giving him no chance to ever win a World Series Title? So, here is the dilemma: Is DCI Marching Music Major League where the best of the best audition to participate and scores are given through a high level of competition, or is it a Community Service Outlet where loyalty is placed above quality and the scores achieved through competition do not matter? You cannot have it both ways. If this is about Community service, then corps' should not have auditions, and DCI should not keep score and call itself a Major League. However, if DCI is a type of Major League, then I am all for a person participating in DCI who is not only like Albert Pujols, but has a character like Pudge Rodriguez, the MLB catcher who went from Texas Rangers to the Florida Marlins to the Detroit Tigers in search of the World Series Ring (which he accomplished).

New corps? What new corps?

1. It was more than one judge. 2. The judging community's stated preference IS the "official viewpoint of DCI", for all practical purposes.

Had a great camp and had lots of fun as always!

I'm curious as to whether this is a typo or a Freudian slip. I always thought Cadets could march on water but now we have confirmation. Can't wait for this show.

You only saw six corps last season?

You made me think of something I should have thought of earlier: Here's a list of all the corps in this week's download bundle, plus what the corps performed. 1985 Camp Randall Stadium University of Wisconsin Madison, Wisconsin August 17, 1985 1. Garfield Cadets (1st place-98.40 ) Jeremiah Symphony—Leonard Bernstein Overture to Candide—Leonard Bernstein Make Our Garden Grow (from “Candide”)—Leonard Bernstein 2. Santa Clara Vanguard (2nd place-97.20) Festive Overture—Dmitri Shostakovich Grovers Corners (from “Our Town”)—Aaron Copland The Tenderland—Aaron Copland, Erik Johns Red Pony—Aaron Copland 3. Blue Devils (3rd place-97.10) Liferaft Earth—Butch Nordal Trilogy—Keith Emerson, Greg Lake Karn Evil 9—Emerson, Greg Lake Piano Concerto No. 1—Keith Emerson First Circle—Pat Metheny 4. Madison Scouts (4th place-95.00) Four Score and Seven—Victor Schoen Ballet in Brass—Victor Schoen Rhapsody in Blue—George Gershwin 5. Cavaliers (5th place-94.10) Also Sprach Zarathustra—Richard Strauss The Planets—Gustav Holst Mars Mercury Uranus Jupiter 6. Suncoast Sound (6th place-92.70) Florida Suite—Robert W. Smith, Allan Murray 7. Spirit of Atlanta (7th place-91.00) Concerto in F—George Gershwin 8. Phantom Regiment (8th place-90.10) Symphony Fantastique—Hector Berlioz 9. Troopers (9th place-86.70) Symphonic Dance No. 3-Fiesta—Clifton Williams Symphony No. 3—Aaron Copland Buckaroo Holiday (from “Rodeo”)—Aaron Copland Red Pony—Aaron Copland 10. Star of Indiana (10th place-85.80) Walt Disney Salute When You Wish Upon A Star—N. Washington, L. Harline Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah—Allie Wrubel, Ray Gilbert A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes—Mack David, Al Hoffman, Jerry Lingston The Sorcerer’s Apprentice—Paul Dukas Who’s Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?—Frank Churchill Mickey Mouse March—Jimmie Dodd It’s a Small World—Richard M. Sherman, Robert B. Sherman 11. Velvet Knights (11th place-85.30) Peter Gunn—Henry Mancini NBC Chimes Festival—Tommy Newsom The Storm—Lee Rittenour Final Analysis—Don Ellis Catching the Sun—Jay Beckenstein 12. Freelancers (12th place-83.20) Immanuel—Michael Columbier The Minotaur—Michael Columbier The Island—Michael Columbier The Forest—Michael Columbier Bells—Ian McDougal

oh thats right we cant actually pick a winner. I mean why dont we just do overall placements that way...or will it prove slotting

alright Charlie!

So is this how Christ taught you to behave? I do not believe you are showing yourself as a good example of Christ's teaching. I believe you should be more humble. Also, use your words to heal and not harm. Wow, I can't believe I just said that.

We're born knowing that one, Jeff...

I heard that waffles are delicious.

I have to say, Madison is certainly picking good music for a continuation of their come back. I really can't wait to hear them play this stuff!

lol

Yes. All 20 in the picture have a contract

I read.

Here's some great BrigsNews: January 15, 2011, New Hartford, NY The Brigadiers Winterguard competed in their first competition of the season at the New Hartford High School last night. And, they won the Independent A Class with a score of 61.5!!! This Mid-York CG Circuit show featured two other competitors in the class. I can't tell you adequately how proud we all are of them! The Brigadiers' name couldn't be in better hands as they represent our corps' values in the world -- really hard work, the pursuit of excellence, and above all, "To Entertain The Audience. PERIOD!" We'll try to put up their performance schedule soon. When you see them, give 'em a, GO BRIGS!!! Scott Mescon Brigadiers 1993-

I think the Cabs might have something to say about that!!!!

Jeff isn't paying cash. and Jeff didn't vote for BD in either option available.

Can we get this thread back on topic please? Personally I'm excited to be marching next year with the Brigs again...

SCV is a 7th place drumcorps. I provided proof that the dot only philosophy does not work. [ 18.6, 18.4 ] Roman had a chance to bring someone in who won DCI. You know what he did? He turned him down. That is a fact. Why did Roman turn him down? Because if he did Roman would have lost some control. Now Madison will win DCI instead of Pioneer.

ok. if you say so. been reading your stuff on RAMD...I'll stand by my statement

oh the irony

So, correct me if I'm wrong here... 1. TOC is a separate venue that is judged according to rules set up by the 'Top 8' participants. 2. These same corps will participate in DCI events using what has to be a different set of rules for judging. 3. The TOC shows will completely (or nearly) cut out other corps from any possibility of participation and compensation. So, what makes Finals so special again? Seems to me that the 'Top 8' are going to be firmly planted to the point that no other corps will be able to break in. They will not get the finances, exposure, or interest that the TOC corps receive and will therefore probably never get the kind of talent that would allow them to break down the wall. Why is DCI even playing this game? For that matter, why are the other member corps playing the game? Just split up and be done with it. Move on and begin rebuilding drum and bugle corps in the traditional sense (e.g. battery, brass, pit, guard). No woodwinds, limited use or no amplification, actual bugles (G, p/r, limited valves, although modern marching brass is OK I guess), local kids in local corps, teaching kids who have never picked up a horn or drum how to play and march....I digress. For me, the simplicity is what made this activity well liked by the masses. Broadway shows on the field are cool too, but they don't impact the number of lives that the hundreds of local DBC units have over the years. People are more proud of their kids on stage than any professional group at a local performance. We've lost our way...advancing the art at the expense of the traditional intent does not seem equitable. When there is a fork in the road, pick a direction and press on. If that means the travelers split up, so be it.

I agree with Jeff. With that being said, who is to say that they would come back as an Open Class corps? Class A would seem much more likely. Also, hope is not lost, as I heard that MCL may be coming back (they have an Open House or camp coming up soon). In addition, there may be one or two Class A groups that decide to make the jump. Fusion Core is likely in a position where they can get the membership to do that after the A Class win. They had a very clean show last year and with the right programming could be competitive in Open Class with just a couple more horns.

Well, not any more though. THE JUDGES only got to judge the 2010 ranking, and apparently it will be frozen there for perpetuity. It's not like they are going to change the G-8 for 2012 based on the 2011 rankings, right? So we "get" to see the same 8 corps in these shows forever (or as long as it lasts). Seems a bit forced, artificial, arbitrary and uncompetitive, no? AJMHO :-)

Well here we are with just a few more days left in 2010 and I thought I would give one more shout out to all you 2010 marching members who blew me away. Thanks for keeping it real on the field. No matter what happens with the powers that be in the Corps, to me it is all about the experience you all give me as a fan and I love it all every year. Some I like better than others but I can take something good from everyone. Top to bottom Drum Corps is great. My brother started in 81 I started in 82 we both were done marching our last year in 89 and I have seen it all every year (30yrs) live or on video. Keep doing what you all are doing cause it does not suck, a little crazy at times but I am proud to say that I love Drum Corps. Cant wait to be blown away in 2011, I for one will be there to see it. Thank You All. Drum Corps Rules!