Leaderboard

It's just an opinion but I got to thinking about members of the first DCI corps in 1972. Most were kids off of the street with no music backround or education. I don't even think most of them were in high school bands at the time and I know my local corps had very few members that could read music. Also, you may have wanted to play soprano but the quartermaster only had baritones on the shelf, so that's what you played. Many corps had feeder corps to help teach younger kids how to march and play. Today's DCI members are much more talented musicians and are member ready before they even go to the first camp. I'm not positive but I think almost everyone (if not everyone) that tries out for corps in 2014 has marched in a high school band. So my point is, as the members change, it would only make sense that the activity would change to better suit and attract band kids over to participate in corps. And, as the membership changes so will the type of crowd that is attracted to the activity. I may be way off base but it's just my opinion. I'm really not all that involved with corps these days.

It's with huge excitement and pleasure we're able to announce that Kidsgrove Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps will be returning to compete in the Drum Corps Associates Championships in 2015! #KSDCA2015 Read more at www.kidsgrovescouts.com And view our announcement video at http://youtu.be/TPm3PANGX9w

This is 100% true: not right, not wrong, just true. If you don't like a given entertainment product it's your "fault" for having different tastes than what said designers are offering. I don't really like drum corps from before the mid-80s (wish some exceptions). The shows were slow paced, often with crass & bright characteristic brass tone, and often put together in a way that seems flat-out schizophrenic as far as a 15 minute program that doesn't seamlessly flow and instead feels like "a bunch of songs the staff liked." Again, there are of course exceptions. But most of those older shows don't do much for me other than a, "yeah that Championship level show is pretty good" or "that was a cool drum lick at least." But that's not the fault of 70s designers, it's my fault for having different tastes as they did. While drum corps is obviously meant to appeal to a stadium full of fans, the shows are designed to max out criteria on judging sheets. Of course designers will design a show to placate judges. If the activity were one of "must 100% entertain," such as Blast!, then things would probably be different. But yeah, if you don't like the direction of DCI show designs it is on you as Blue Devils, for example, don't call you personally to get your input: they design to win DCI & assume their fans will at least appreciate their design styles.

So, not new in the slightest. Old developments is what you want. Just the way it was in your favorite era

I find this proposal as intriguing as the "other one". While the majority agree to passing new instrumentation that will give designers new freedoms to create wonderful fan friendly new moments, there was much disagreement on this one. The entertainment proposal called for more focus and reward to design that engages the audience. It felt that there needs to be a shift in design from what the judge thought was effective, to what the fan thought was effective. It certainly implies that the current scoring system does not do that. Basically, it asks for the current 40 points in GE to be split up 20 for what the judges think is effect, and 20 for how the fans react to the effect. I doubt had this passed, that 5,000 people would have signed a petition in 24 hours asking for it to be repealed. How can the message be that we overwhelmingly feel we need to add things and make changes to allow for new things that fans will love, but we aren't sure we want their judgement to determine our competitive success? One might start to wonder if some think they know better than fans about what is enjoyable and what is not.

Isn't that what Madison has been doing it lately? And even after 4 years of shows rooted in the old style, they're the ones to propose the trombone/French horn rule. Surf has been doing old school shows as well. A lot of fans like shows that are old-school, fast and loud shows. And lots of fans like the more artistic shows that can engage their mind and entertain at the same time. Luckily, there are enough corps out there that there is something for everyone. Trying to make everyone do the same type of show would probably be terribly boring, as variety is the spice of life.

As a mid-30's married guy whose wife is out of town at a conference & whose son is out of town on a camp out, this thread has been an incredible way to waste a bit of time this evening! Thanks for whomever brought this back up!

I don't think so. They created some really incredible visual effects with that uniform that wouldn't have been possible with the cream uniforms (because of the colors, especially the orange stripe from jacket shoulder to pants ankle). Also the dark colored pants help to hide visual dirt. While their members marched well in 2013, better IMO than 2012, I think having darker pants to hide slight inconsistencies helped their look as well. I really don't mean to sound like I'm taking anything away from their win or anything, but part of that amazing design was their uniform design: it would undoubtedly be a different show with totally different uniforms

Obviously "entertaining" is subjective, and FWIW I agree that Surf hasn't really entertained me lately (only partially because of their lack of execution in comparison to most of the WC). There shows recently have seemed like pastiche, and that of an outdated style no less. As others have mentioned, Bridgemen were awesome because they executed well; VK was at their best when they were executing well. Aping the fun without the execution isn't entertaining for me personally (and the fairly empty seats on the Semis broadcast from last year seems to suggest there were plenty of others with a like mind). I know I'm at that weird age where I came into the drum corps activity when VK was on the downside of their existence and Bridgemen was but a memory seen by me only on videos (videos of INCREDIBLE drumlines) so maybe I'm not the target audience of those shows. Surf has had some good shows in past seasons, and I look forward to see what they do this year; they have been improving a little bit each year and I hope to see them kick it up a few notches again this season.

Not at all. But bringing it back to old school drum corps would not be a new development, but sending things into the past. Which is where a lot of that stuff belongs.

Speaking of Boston here, and Allentown( and with another thread on here resurrected about stories from the past ), Boston in DCI was so out of resources one year back in the 70's that they could no longer afford bus transportation, nor school gyms reservations to sleep, but the spirit and will to compete and put on a show at DCI East Allentown here that you brought had the members go in their own cars and drive the 7 hours to compete there one year. With no accommodations, they slept in the park beside the Allentown stadium under the stars, or in their cars. They didn't make the Finals there that particular year but that wasn't the point as they knew they wouldn't make Finals before they decided to even make the 14 hour round trip drive down to Allentown from Boston.

Man-- bringing up DCI East prelims... great memories. And what's interesting here is not what the corps did, or even how good or not good some of them were. I don't need to go there because the entire "get there early for a good seat and get crazy burned" was something I looked forward to every year. East prelims was a veritable buffet of Drum Corps of all kinds, a real arena of ideas. Things to experience and learn from. And also a great deal for the ticket for a guy like me. My first experience was my rookie season in corps, 1979 we went to it on the way to a DCA show that evening, and for a 16 year old kid it was great. Offensive Lions and Boston, exciting, different, fun, the big names were all there. So much to experience all at once. I'm gonna wax nostalgic for a reason now, and not to gripe that there are fewer numbers of corps, and not because shows are different now- but here's a short list of corps I saw over the years at prelims: Black Gold from Tulsa, Beatrix, Dutch Boy, the California Dons, the Longview Marauders, Masquerade, the NYC Lancers, Offensive Lions, Connexion Quebec, Greece Cadets, Watkins Glen Squires, Les Chatelaines, Les Eclipses, L'Insolite... all kinds of different ideas, things to listen and learn from coming at you from every direction. It was a real feast, man. Note none of those corps ever cracked the top 10 at finals, so what? They were out there trying their very best to do something cool and exciting and some of it was pretty daggone good and original. Now, you have to have your tickets bought immediately for when you go in advance or you end up on the 25 yard boonies. I gave up on that because frankly, I'm a bit tight on money at this time of the year. It is what it is. I went a few times, some fine performances, but I'm spoiled with where I sit at shows, I want the best seats, just me. Saw SCV Scherezade, PR's Faust show, some real fine moments when I went- don't get me wrong there about the whole battle over old and new. The crowds, appreciative, but very golf clappy. A lot less of that kind of crazy Woodstock feel with the bleachers sorta full but full in the sweet spot and would get fuller as the morning crawled on- those spots full of us hardcore drum corps bums wearing our T-shirts and caps full of badges that would stand on the bleachers and give it up huge when someone rocked it out. We were all like Zingali when he lost his mind when it got good. Not those little genteel claps and the polite smiles and the band contest reactions when its over like I see more and more of now. Heaven forbid you "Blooo!" the Blue Coats when they inspire. How dare anyone react and give it up, the band moms in the crowd find that just too over the top. Just my tuppence. Maybe it's not the "what" of what the corps do or not do that honks me off. Maybe it's just that somehow, those kind of experiences have diminished somehow for me in DCI. That sense of discovery, the sense of white hot cool, the sense that the crowd dug it, the corps knew and responded in kind. I don't think amplification is to blame for it. Frankly, I'm not sure WHAT is to blame. I wish I knew so i could give whatever or whoever it is royal heck. And yeah, the crowd could be tough. Like the time a certain troublemaker heckled a certain corps in '91 prelims that deserved it big time, but... that's another story. I think in that case, DCI took note....

nope...

DCI East late 70's early 80's = fans bringing in coolers loaded with beer for prelims. DCI Eastern Classic now = I think if someone even tried to sneak a beer in and opened it, you may get a few dirty looks. Of course there are no prelims in the blistering sun anymore.

A little 'trivia-like' information . . . . The first DCA Championship in Allentown was awarded in 1976, with the event held September, 1977. The first DCI-East in Allentown was determined in March, 1977 with the event held July, 1977. It is not possible to demonstrate, one way or the other, the demographic of early Allentown DCI crowds. No formal effort was made to do that, so any opinion would need to be just someone's impression. Here is my own. The very first DCI-East crowd demographic would not be a good representation of DCI's earlier years there. That event was a last-minute switch from someplace else and did not have the usual lead-up promotion. The second year there would be a better representation, however even that is not a pure indicator. The first Allentown DCA Championship, held two months after DCI-East, directly exposed a huge, new, mostly older audience to the facility. It can be assumed many were pleased with Allentown and began a habit of going to that city for BOTH DCI and DCA. I would think, beginning in 1978, the DCI crowd became 'older' than it was in 1977. Even a few DCA corps kept DCI-East weekend open so their membership could attend DCI-East. My unscientific observations of every Allentown event since that time leads me to say, Allentown is still DCI's oldest average crowd, as a percentage of total crowd. Unfortunately, the percentage of older spectators has dropped considerably over the years, mostly due to the aging process, and partly due to the changing nature of DCI performances.

Well to be more factually accurate, you did make up SOME of this comment up. That Director was not found guilty of " murder " at all. He was neither prosecuted, nor even arrested for " murder ". So you are just wrong on the facts. That said, you would have been better served in your comments to state that the current Drum Major of the Garfield Cadets ( at that time ) died mysteriously in the home of this other Corps Director in which heavy use of alcohol in an all night drinking binge at the house had been established by the police. But thats a far cry for the establishment of any " murder " by this Corps Director of this 19- 20 year older at the time, thats for sure, anyway.

Yes, it is a welcome change now that increasingly victims of child molestations ( Religious, school teachers, public and private sector predators ) are being caught, prosecuted and imprisoned. Much of this welcome change can be attributed to technologies ability to find convincing evidence that will culminate in convictions at court than perhaps BITD could not provide as readily.

My old church started that just before the Catholic Church problem hit big time. As a council member (maybe VP at the time) I had to go to training and go thru the background checks as an example. Scariest thing I learned was: "As more and more places require checks, the pedopiles will search for places that do not require them. And as the number of places that don't require them go down, the chances go up that they will be hit. IOW - that target they place on themselves by ignoring is getting bigger and bigger."

You sound like you are in a proactive school district that does everything it can to protect its children from potential predators. I applaud their efforts, though paperwork time consuming.

Yes, by 5 feet wide...

Pre-show is a choice. The actual adjudicated performance time is shorter. If one wants to roll back the hands of time..........think of when there was the adjudicated dreaded full corps "Inspection Line".....then moing forward to the "Ready Line".......then moving forward to the "Starting Line"..........then doing a 15 minute performance. HeII, that took so long.........you could start out age eligible on the inspection line and be overage by the time you stepped over the finish line!

Firing squad. Every last one of these ####s.

but they're not entertaining... sloppy and dirty is never entertaining. both Bridgemen and VK did "fun", but they worked extremely hard at it, designed it well and were exceptionally clean... that's what made it fun and entertaining. by your logic McDonalds doesnt have to be good quality, just something to eat, regardless of how bad it makes you feel and look. oh, and dont overstate it by comparing them to a Lamborghini ... more like they are a Ford Focus

"As a result of so many more marchers, there both more talented marchers marching drums, brass, guard then as well as much less talented marchers in drums, brass, guard doing competitive Drum Corps than today" Brasso, what you are failing to understand is this idea of ratios and that ratios change from decade to decade in the activity. Even if there were 10,000 more marching members BITD than there are today it DOES NOT tell you anything about the MAKEUP of said group. You assume... "well there were more overall marchers so therefore there were more individually talented members and more individually untalented members" But that is logical fallacy!! One does not imply the other no matter how large the total difference in the groups may be!! You need more concrete information about the members than simply there overall numbers!!! You need to understand that you CANNOT say that unless you have a definitive ratio of talented vs. untalented members BITD. Maybe the ratio was 1:1 or maybe it was 1:100. Maybe everyone was talented or maybe no one was talented. Your personal observation doesn't matter and this discussion is useless if you are not logical about the statements you make. Also, you cannot make any such statements because we have not defined what "talented" actually means and comparing the talent of this generation to another is pointless. So, you can say whatever you want a justify it anyway you want but in the end it can NEVER be the undeniable fact that you claim it to be (that there were more individually talented members BITD than there were today). Your justification is not logical. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there are now thousands of marching bands around the country with thousands of more students learning marching brass, guard and percussion than there ever was in the history of this nation. Regardless of talent, that's certainly more significant.

Entertainment value very often comes from being clean so I don't understand why you mock cleanliness.

Drum corps and marching band will basically be the same thing- already pretty much is. Drum corps will still put on a much higher level of product, but the coolness and exotic appeal of it will continue to diminish as it turns into simply "really good band". I know there are some that contest the new rules changes are good, and making DCI and BOA basically the same product are good, but I strongly object. What drum corps used to have over bands was swagger, balls, and a high degree of cool because of the unique instrumentation. Marching band isn't cool- trombones/sousaphones/chessy keys gimicks/etc... these are exactly what drove me to join a drum corps- it was pure and it was really cool because of the ABSENCE of that stuff! Seeing the pit (prior to keys/amps) actually doing live Foley sound effects accoustically in front of me was awesome, the sound of G horns pinned wide open was awesome, it was awesome because it wasn't band. I am a professional saxophone and guitarist, and love those instruments to the bone (they are my liveilhood), but they are not DRUM & BUGLE CORPS! It seems simple to me... drum and bugle corps is DRUMS and BUGLES, hence the name. So, that is where I think DCI is heading in 2020... bands/un-cool/loss of brand identity- it seems likely they won't call it drum and bugle corps anymore. My question is why? Are kids and fans clamoring for this? I didn't march that long ago and can't think of one person in my corps that wouldn't want to punch someone in the face for even calling it a "band", let alone having trombones/keyboards/etc as a part of it. None of the folks I know (many) who follow drum corps like any of the changes, and we are certainly not "dinosaurs"- some of us had to march with the new changes and philosophy and play along, but certainly didn't like it.

I'm taking the "wait and see" attitude on the instrumentation change. However, after reading the great analysis on DCI adapting its "product" for a wider audience and varying venues (in the search of more $$$$), it makes me wonder, when do we stop thinking of the students as "performers" and start thinking of them as un-paid employees?

I can't speak for specific corps, but most contras are about 40" tall and weigh 25-30 lbs. If you're lucky (or unlucky), Spirit or Cadets may be marching a line of Sousaphones by the time you audition.

We can't somehow quantify "entertainment appeal" of shows, but we *can* quantify "intellectual engagement" of shows (GE)? Mike

You guys were kind of notorious for your "Police Escorts" weren't you! :P ^0^

Not true, it was only twice as hard. That happend all the time. Regards, John Swartz Oaklands 77-80