Can Anybody Beat the Bucs?

[doppeljr]

"With the caveat "Unless things have changed from the beginning of '05 until now"..."

It has and they (Bucs) always do. Better to be a moving target than a sitting duck.

"I would say that Bucs drill would equal or top any others. But not the music, at least based upon what I was given in all the brass lines I've stood in. Even 00-01 Cru was harder. "

Harder or written less effectively? Plus, I would be curious to hear how the other lines in ’05 would have handled Adagio or the rest of the show for that matter. Bucs write a Full Ensemble book, not three separate books that have to be fit together after being written.

"As for talent level, the best brass line I've ever been in was '03 Brigs, even though I've been in more balanced lines from the top talent to the bottom. "

As a member of a line, are you really in a position to make this judgement? Take away any hired guns and the Bucs stack up with anyone in talent.

"Bucs practice a lot more than the other corps I've experienced, but their membership is more local than those other corps', so they can expect that. "

Pittsburgh, Philly, NJ, Delaware and Seattle for that matter are not LOCAL to Reading, PA. It’s about the same everywhere amongst the top DCA corps as far as local/out of town goes.

"They need that time because of the "inefficiency" their communication style requires. However, the staff there communicates much more information much more usefully to the members. As a result, the corps can clean its program to a much higher degree than any other corps I've seen. Other corps do more running; Bucs do more listening. So, their "down" time is higher, but their result is better. "

I’m guessing this is “working smarter, not just harder”? The other side to this cliché is that if you “work dumber” you have to “work harder” to make up for the bad use of time.

"Therefore, in terms of average effort per minute, Bucs is not the highest I've seen. In terms of average result per minute even, they might not be the best, but with the total minutes they put in, the final result is what counts, and they've been the best for the last several years, 2008 inclusive. "

As a man of logic and science, are you really comfortable making this assessment? How did you measure your data, Dale?

"Talent in the staff can overcome lack of talent in the membership. After all, aren't many people here from the day when everyone was taught by rote? People who didn't know a lick of music theory won championships. How? Better teachers taught them than who taught the competition. "

“Talent” isn’t about music theory or note reading. It’s about what comes out of the horn. If you put manure into the mouthpiece, you get manure out of the bell. Bucs put quality buzz into their mouthpieces. The results are obvious.[

Preparation is key, as many people here have mentioned, and all will agree that the Bucs come prepared. It's not a matter of who worked harder or whose program is the hardest. "Hard/er/est" doesn't win. "Most talented" doesn't even win. "Prepared" wins. "Prepared" means the design is top-notch and finalized, the teachers and teaching program are in place, the members are aware of their responsibilities and well-rehearsed in their tasks.

It’s funny this discussion always emerges after the season starts and not in October through December, when the outcome of the battle is actually being determined.

Edited July 31, 2008 by doppeljr

[Tom D'Bomb]

You do not necessarily agree that the Bucs have a better product or talent level? Really?? Gotta tell 'ya, you're likely in the minority there....

Well, let's not be unreasonable here. The consesus is that they work harder AND are the most prepared AND have the best staff. And now you take umbrage with someone who says they might not have the best talent or product (whatever he means by "product").

It's possible they don't have the best talent - the best talent doesn't always win. The fact is they always win.

If the objective of the "product" is to win DCA every year, then yes they do have the best "product." If the "product" is designed to entertain the audience, then I don't know... maybe someone who's been at all the shows can tell me that.

Don't get defensive if some people don't believe they have best EVERYTHING EVER.

They are certainly going to win THIS YEAR but can they win NEXT YEAR?

[Dale Bari]

As a member of a line, are you really in a position to make this judgement? Take away any hired guns and the Bucs stack up with anyone in talent.

I can say it because I was there. And you weren't.

[donincardona]

The 2001 DCA Finals featured two fine corps, with completely different strengths. I loved telling each group my view of the 2001 Finals (and listening to them try to counter me).

If Bucs'd had 20 more brass, they'd have trampled the Brigs. The Bucs' show had much more nuance and expression to it. The Brigs were much more powerful and talented than the Bucs; they just plain overpowered the Bucs. The Bucs were "David" to the Brigs' "Goliath". Only, "Goliath" was too strong for "David" that time. The Bucs also benefited from the "Anybody But Brigs" sentiment that had already taken hold. Other than that, no one else could/did come so close to the Brigs during their '99-'02 run.

As compared to Bucs '05-'08, it's a tougher call. From '99 to '02, the second/third/fourth place corps were: Bucs/Statesmen/MBI, Cabs/Bucs/Statesmen, Bucs/Cabs/Statesmen, and Statesmen/Bucs/MBI - 4 different corps. From '05 to '08, it was(is) Statesmen/Bush/Brigs, Statesmen/Bush/Cabs, Cabs/Statesmen/Bush, and Hurcs/Cabs/Statesmen - 5 different corps. If a champion's quality can be determined by the quality of its competition, then maybe Brigs win by an eyelash, just because they had to fend off a slightly tighter field over the years.

Yes, their models are way different. I think the Brigs were the more exceptional corps because what they did was so unexpected. From 1997 until 2004, that corps never placed lower than 2nd. That's 8 seasons, after only being in existence for 6 years prior. Don't forget, before their first title, Brigs' best finish was 6th. No one had ever seen a four-peat in DCA before. Bucs just completed their 50th anniversary season, had won DCA 4 times prior, and, before winning in 2005, had been not lower than 5th in the prior 7 seasons.

dale i hate so say this but the brigs best placing at finals before their 1st title was 3rd place in 1968. sorry guy close but no cigar.

[Dale Bari]

Harder or written less effectively? Plus, I would be curious to hear how the other lines in ’05 would have handled Adagio or the rest of the show for that matter. Bucs write a Full Ensemble book, not three separate books that have to be fit together after being written.

"The Bucs write a Full Ensemble book, not three separate books, blah, blah, blah." Who cares? You mentioned how hard the music is/was, and I'm telling you that I played several brass books harder than that '05 book, before and since. Yes, the '05 Bucs played extremely well, enough to win the brass trophy going away that night, but they haven't done it since. (Yes, I know, tied in '07, but they weren't better than everyone else in those years.)

Take away any hired guns and the Bucs stack up with anyone in talent.

Ah, this tired argument again. Nothing the Bucs accomplish will make this silly claim go away, will it? I am as offended now as I was in the band room at Twin Valley listening to you folks trying to denigrate another corps for "buying" championships. Sorry, didn't happen!

Pittsburgh, Philly, NJ, Delaware and Seattle for that matter are not LOCAL to Reading, PA. It’s about the same everywhere amongst the top DCA corps as far as local/out of town goes.

No, it's not. Pittsburgh is further from upstate NY than from Reading. Many more folks I knew in Brigs/ES/Cru were further than the PGH folks are from Bucs, and that is the furthest distance of any of those you named. (except for Seattle, whatever difference that makes.) Those corps couldn't call a Friday rehearsal like Bucs can. I drove further to Reading than almost everyone in that corps, and my 3-hour commute was way shorter than it had been in the other corps, and there were many folks who were even further than that. How did you measure your data, David?

As a man of logic and science, are you really comfortable making this assessment? How did you measure your data, Dale?

I measured it by how much I stood around versus how much I was running back to my spot. I was there. Trying to call me on a bogus "scientific" question isn't going to trump my experience. I've already praised the Bucs for their system, as I experienced it. What more do you want?

It’s funny this discussion always emerges after the season starts and not in October through December, when the outcome of the battle is actually being determined.

I don't know about most everyone else, but I've said on DCP at different times that "championships are won when the stands are empty". Yes, I borrowed that phrase from elsewhere, so I don't claim authorship, nor do I own that particular insight. But, I do recognize its relevance, as do many others, I'm sure. So, what now? Do you wish, as TA has mentioned wrt to someone else, for everyone to bow down and proclaim that what Bucs do is "worthy" and what anyone else does is not?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. And what wins is not necessarily what I want to see every Saturday/Sunday during drum corps season. I had more fun watching Bucs than Brigs in 2001. I certainly had more fun watching Hurcs than Bucs in Manassas Park in '08. And, I certainly had more fun playing "Night and Day" than I did "Adagio" in '05, but that wasn't the music's fault, was it?

Edited July 31, 2008 by Dale Bari

[Dale Bari]

dale i hate so say this but the brigs best placing at finals before their 1st title was 3rd place in 1968. sorry guy close but no cigar.

I hope the is for recognizing that, even though the 1990's re-incarnation of the corps laid claim to the entire history of the Brigadiers, they were a completely new group in terms of competition. That history didn't give the 1997 Brigs one iota of momentum coming into the season, but the steady climb from 1992 to 1996 did.

[JoeDz]

The ORIGINAL question at the start of this survey thread was 'who, if anyone, could beat the Bucs this year."

I believe that the Bucs will repeat.

I believe that if they are to fall, one the following corps MAY be the one to top them (if the Bucs slip....all five CAN beat them):

(NOT in any order)

The Renegades.... having a great year.....fresh appearance to DCA regulars

Minnesota Brass...... having a great year......fresh appearance to DCA regulars

The Empire Statesmen..... an anniversary corps playing in their home town, eating and living at home.

The Hurcs..... having a great year.....on a roll.... the sustained biggest leap up in the past couple years.

The Cabs.....having a "Cabs" year.....always capable of busting a big show

These five corps are approaching first place from close enough to allow judges a feeling of comfort in boosting them up. The freshness of the 'gades, Brass and Hurcs makes them Cinderella stories.

The Costello/Bruni stability of Cabs and Empire always make them an excellent choice.

I still think it's the Bucs.

Gonna' be a great show......can't wait to add to my DVD collection.

Joe

[Kamarag]

And, I certainly had more fun playing "Night and Day" than I did "Adagio" in '05, but that wasn't the music's fault, was it?

I would tell you that while Bucs brass does have a lot of talented members, they are far from the corps with the most loaded for bear talent. But if you don't have the book, staff, and support from other sections, talent means nothing.

The Buccaneers are winning right now because they have an amazing off the field administration (as good or better than as the best in DCI), incredible design team, fantastic instructors and a highly committed membership. The past three and a half seasons, all of that has been there and they have started full-bore on day one in November without letting up. Can any other corps honestly say that?

The Buccaneers and "their way" are not for everyone. I think that's probably true for all corps, especially in DCA.

And, for the record, Adagio in 2005 was the single most difficult piece of music I have ever played on the field. Yes, ever. And I've played some ridiculous brass books.

[Dale Bari]

I would tell you that while Bucs brass does have a lot of talented members, they are far from the corps with the most loaded for bear talent. But if you don't have the book, staff, and support from other sections, talent means nothing.

The Buccaneers are winning right now because they have an amazing off the field administration (as good or better than as the best in DCI), incredible design team, fantastic instructors and a highly committed membership. The past three and a half seasons, all of that has been there and they have started full-bore on day one in November without letting up. Can any other corps honestly say that?

The Buccaneers and "their way" are not for everyone. I think that's probably true for all corps, especially in DCA.

QFT

On Membership Day for the 2005 season, Bucs did indeed start strong and have not let up since. The results speak clearly. Other corps work hard and do difficult things (maybe even more so than the corps in question here), but no one else has put it all together like they have. And it looks likely that that is true for 2008 as well.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Dale Bari

[donincardona]

I hope the is for recognizing that, even though the 1990's re-incarnation of the corps laid claim to the entire history of the Brigadiers, they were a completely new group in terms of competition. That history didn't give the 1997 Brigs one iota of momentum coming into the season, but the steady climb from 1992 to 1996 did.

yeah but you can say that about every rebirth. it's true they are not the same corps but they carry the name.