Jeff Ream Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'm not just passionate about plate lines back in the day. I'm passionate about them now.As for reasons? Who knows unless the staffs of the individual corps were polled. But I can make some guesses. 1) Bb/F brass - it's not as loud, so they needed the extra brass players. 2) Brass people as show coordinators dictating numbers to percussion staffs 3) Braga's not in charge 4) Cymbal players eat more on tour 5) Cymbal payers get all the hot chicks; brass players revolt 6) Ream's not in charge 7) DCI backlash against WGI cymbal excellence 8) It's easier to take a cymbal player's plates away than a guard member's saber 9) Plates - If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible. 10) I'M not in charge! That's a start... Garry in Vegas can I be #7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I taught a WGI group that has a cymbal line, and four years ago I taught that cymbal line. It was one of the most fun years I've had in the last decade teaching a percussion unit. The cymbal members were great, learned a lot, and we took it up a notch or two (and won a few local I&E competitions as well).Just wanted to clear up my bias FOR cymbal lines before I move on to answer your question. On a football field, the awesome sound effects capable of a cymbal line easily get lost due to the large horn line and the HUGE surface area of a football stadium. Short of the cymbal staging be between the 40's in front of the front hash, and the horns playing MF or quieter, many of the cooler sound effects from a marching cymbal line get lost on the field. Many of those great WGI cymbal lines are able to be enjoyed and appreciated (and used to great effect) because of the smaller instrumentation of WGI (no horn line) and significantly smaller dimensions of a basketball court vs. a football stadium. So get rid of the cool sound effects, and what are we left with: * really cool visuals * crashes at impact points * hi-hat notes and slides As you might have already guessed, those things can indeed be created with other members of a drum corps ensemble. Do I like DCI cymbal lines. DEFINITELY. I absolutely LOVE seeing a DCI cymbal line. I do appreciate their effects and visual contribution to the corps. I remember back in the day when Cadets and Blue Devils had cymbal lines. As a teacher I totally get the educational value of a cymbal line in a corps. I appreciate that it gives an opportunity for students to gain a place in a corps and gain experience when they might not be capable enough to make another section. I appreciate the speciality of cymbal players. Some of my fondest DCI I&E memories are of various cymbal lines (one of my favorites: SCV's 1993 cymbal ensemble). I love what a cymbal line can bring to a show. But I also know that logically, I'd rather see a corps be honest with themselves and not march a cymbal line when they don't feel the need to do it, then march a half-###ed cymbal line because people want them too. If Blue Devils feel their shows can have more of an impact with out a cymbal line, I will trust them. If Thom Hannum feels he doesn't need to have a cymbal line at Madison Scouts (and I can't begin to imagine that Thom Hannum is at a point in his career where he will take a gig that he doesn't have control to have the instrumentation he wants: if there's no cymbal line at Scouts it's because Hannum doesn't feel he needs a cymbal line) I will trust that he and the rest of Scout's design team have a plan, and no cymbal line is part of their greater plan for the entire organization. I don't want to put my personal bias for cymbal lines against what Madison's administration feels is best for their organization. odd. in the stands I can hear many of those effects from the field, even with 10 zillion people on brass....unless the low end of the synth or the over cranked pit is drowning everything out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 odd. in the stands I can hear many of those effects from the field, even with 10 zillion people on brass....unless the low end of the synth or the over cranked pit is drowning everything out Awesome. Not shocked at all that at least one person would immediately counter with "but I hear many of that stuff." Keep in mind the average music or GE judges are not percussionists and not listening for a cymbal sound effect. I never said that those cymbal sound effects (which I love, and always hope to see/hear some new sound I'd never heard before from a cymbal line) aren't effective. I'm more arguing that for most DCI designers/percussion arrangers the cymbal sound effects are not as important to the overall effect of the show than an extra couple of horn players, guard members, battery or front ensemble musicians. Although, my above argument doesn't need to be said as currently there are less corps with a cymbal line than without one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGarrett Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) Cymbal lines... Guardsmen 1979: We had pretty girls carrying them back then who could knock you out with one punch by August... (and yeah, I know my shorts there are stupid looking now, but they were cool back then, so all you guys that have that "mohawk" thing going now, wait for 20 years and see how "cool" that looks then to your kids... LOL) Madison 1982: Forks, Worm, Moose, Spif and Lattimer Edited October 24, 2009 by GGarrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84skyrydr Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Ummmm, but they do have crash cymbals in the pit don't they? I'm sorry, I love the sound of a cymbal crash, especially in a ballad (i.e. Cavies 2003, Cadets 1998, etc. etc.) but I don't see why you need cymbal players on the field. I have been in a drum corps where they had cymbal players on the field and frankly, I don't hear any difference from the ones on the field as opposed to the ones in the pit. You know, I would like to know why most drum corps without cymbal lines chose to get rid of them. I'm willing to bet that they feel the parts are already taken care of in the pit. But hey, this is only one man's opinion. By your logic, we don't need tubas anymore with the advent of the synth to drum corps. Tubas are big, ugly, distracting and hard for those members to carry. They add little to nothing visually so get rid of them? I love plate lines. I marched three years, three different corps in the plate line, INTENTIONALLY. I loved what I did. I did see more than one corps this year alone do the SCV move. I was P#^%$$D that SCV didn't end with the V and would have been really ticked if I was a cymbal player for SCV the year they snub the V tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 By your logic, we don't need tubas anymore with the advent of the synth to drum corps. Tubas are big, ugly, distracting and hard for those members to carry. They add little to nothing visually so get rid of them? That makes little to no sense. Replace an acoustic instrument with an electronic instrument that sounds nothing like it, or replace an acoustic instrument with the EXACT SAME acoustic instrument that sounds exactly like it (the only difference being in the writting of the parts). Hmm, yeah...great example, you've convinced me If percussion writers wanted a complex cymbal part, it could still be done in the pit....but they dont, and so it isnt. By all means, complain about cymbals being gone, and I might even agree with you. I too think its silly that a corps cant find a spot for 4 people out of 150 to continue a great tradition. BUT...dont go trying to justify your opinion with silly logic. It doesnt help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D'Bomb Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 That makes little to no sense. Replace an acoustic instrument with an electronic instrument that sounds nothing like it, or replace an acoustic instrument with the EXACT SAME acoustic instrument that sounds exactly like it (the only difference being in the writting of the parts). Hmm, yeah...great example, you've convinced me If percussion writers wanted a complex cymbal part, it could still be done in the pit....but they dont, and so it isnt. By all means, complain about cymbals being gone, and I might even agree with you. I too think its silly that a corps cant find a spot for 4 people out of 150 to continue a great tradition. BUT...dont go trying to justify your opinion with silly logic. It doesnt help. It's amazing to see the paradigm shift (or tipping point) ... I remember when it was an outrage when they started putting cymbals in the pit. "Oh my God, it'll kill the whole need for a cymbal line!" Now they're outraged that there are cymbals on the field. Having cymbals on the field isn't just some new SCV gimmick.... everybody USED to have cymbals. I'd like to hear from the guys (and gals) who started on cymbals, and then moved to Bass, Tenor, Snare, and ultimately to "DCP Contributor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 It's amazing to see the paradigm shift (or tipping point) ... I remember when it was an outrage when they started putting cymbals in the pit. "Oh my God, it'll kill the whole need for a cymbal line!" Now they're outraged that there are cymbals on the field. Having cymbals on the field isn't just some new SCV gimmick.... everybody USED to have cymbals. I hope you arent referring to me, as I even said I enjoy cymbal lines, and certainly am not outraged that they still exist. Not sure where that all came from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAV Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 If Blue Devils feel their shows can have more of an impact with out a cymbal line, I will trust them. But Blue Devils HAVE a cymbal line - 7 of them! - AND won the championships this past summer. OK - so it was the B corps, but check it out: every year that line grows and grows. Why? 'Cause they have no place to go in the A corps. One of these days there's going to be 25 cymbalists in the B corps and then you're really going to hear them! Mav...still wishing & hoping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000Cadet Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 By your logic, we don't need tubas anymore with the advent of the synth to drum corps. Tubas are big, ugly, distracting and hard for those members to carry. They add little to nothing visually so get rid of them? I love plate lines. I marched three years, three different corps in the plate line, INTENTIONALLY. I loved what I did. I did see more than one corps this year alone do the SCV move. I was P#^%$$D that SCV didn't end with the V and would have been really ticked if I was a cymbal player for SCV the year they snub the V tradition. No where in ANY of my statements was I trying to demean, belittle, or alienate cymbal players AT ALL. So try and relax. Besides, just like you INTENTIONALLY decided to play cymbals, those tuba players who INTENTIONALLY played tubas know EXACTLY what they are getting into, but I don't remember that stopping most of them. Like I said before, I appreciate what cymbal players bring to the field, and I appreciate corps like SCV who choose to field cymbal lines. All I am saying is that it seems that those corps who chose not to field cymbal lines felt either that those parts could be taken care of in the pit, or that there was no need to have a cymbal line on the field based on the music that is written. If a corps chooses later on to field a cymbal line because the part is needed, then that's fine with me. I have no problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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