Why Blue Devils Win

[ShortAndFast]

Even if you could argue that the "how" between the two corps is comparable, or even a slight edge to BD, the "what" in the brass book blows BD out of the water.

I don't agree. Brass judges, by and large, understand what constitutes brass "what" and "how". I'm sure if you were to look at the BD book, their staff could show you plenty of examples to justify their scores.

Now, factor in music effect, which Cadets did manage to win. But by a tenth? Only if you are smoking crack. There is absolutely no comparison in the quality and effectiveness of the musical arrangements and their ability to communicate the program to the audience. NONE.

Here I do agree. It would seem like Music Effect is one area where there are big, obvious differences between Cadets and BD. So you'd expect to see a spread that reflects that. Instead, the spread basically says "these two groups were equivalent and I made a judgement call for Cadets". It's hard to understand how you get that result from the plain language on the sheets.

Basically, I'd agree with some of the BD supporters on this thread that BD is in another world from the Cadets in terms of visual design, and therefore deserves big spreads in visual effect. It may not be my cup of tea, but there's a lot of sophistication there and I can see why it's being rewarded. It's hard to understand why the converse isn't true of their music designs.

[megadrive]

And your capitalized sentence actually states the biggest problem with the judging system in DCI. Many people believe that a show's ability to communicate emotionally with a majority of the audience should be a factor in the music effect caption(which also usually ties in with the quality of musical composition/arrangement). This is not how it is being judged, and it really is for the most part another execution caption. Even with that, the Cadets won the music effect caption....but by a tenth?? I question that.....highly......

The only exception we had to this was in 2008......whereas that BD corps probably executed as good as the last two years, you cannot compare the effectiveness of the two programs (BD and Phantom, and if you saw that show live, BD didn't compare at all......yet the margin was .025....again, questionable. Did BD march a tad cleaner? Probably.....did they earn the 19.9's and 20 thrown at them in visual that night?? laughable....

People are not booing corps, they are booing the judged results.....the "kids" know it.....they are over it......get over it....it's the only way that fans can let the judges know that they are dissatisfied with the judging system.

You mention the comments "functional ears and eyes" regarding evaluating last year's BD corps....I guess you disagreed with the judges that night....you might want to change that to "eyes" only.....as Crown won brass performance and ensemble, and overall music.

I agree that in drum corps scoring, only execution counts anymore....a well-arranged product that connects with an audience means nothing, and if your program is deficient in that aspect, it really doesn't matter...

And if you think I am some kind of "BD hater", than think again.......BD has played some of the greatest drum corps arrangements in history.....it's just been awhile....

GB

No arguments from me for most of your points.

I guess I can buy that it's "eyes only", but I was just refering to the whole package. Crown did have a better brass sound.

Crown's show, although entertaining, was overambitious, there was no way they were gonna clean that sucker to BD levels.

As for GE.....not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's the way it is.

Still think booing is wrong though

[soccerguy315]

Can I also tack on using proper grammar and sentence structure please? I've seen "haters gonna hate" way too many times in this thread.... somehwere, an English teacher is crying.

Why does your ellipsis have too many dots? Somewhere, an English teacher is crying.

edited because I made a tYpO. iRoNiC (this might not actually be ironic either... haven't taken an English class since high school)

Edited July 12, 2010 by soccerguy315

[Team_Hawk]

While BD's more esoteric "post-modern" style shows may not be fan-favorites of the hardcore Drum Corps enthusiast, I do think their product (especially this year!) is very accessible to casual observers and those in the audience who simply want to be entertained. This is not the 70's, the old style of drum corps is dead... naturally this is how all artistic genres (music, film, art, etc.) evolve. How'd we get from Michaelangelo and Da Vinci to Salvador Dali and Picasso? As a hip-hop fan I can think of a more accessible example. Do you think Grand Master Flash (or even Tupac and Biggie) would have predicted that the hyper-electronic, overly-processed music of artists like Kanye and Drake would become the face of rap music? Wild wildly different from the original product, there is no denying that these modern artists put out an amazing product that is, dare I say, better than what came before it. There is always nostalgia for the past, but I respect how BD has revolutionized drum corps and believe it is GOOD for the activity (granted other ensembles are also revolutionizing the activity in their own way, which is awesome!). This is not drum corps, it is the deconstruction of drum corps, it is meta-Drum Corps and it is wildly entertaining!

Two great examples: Fans at the Rose Bowl 4th of July celebration (mostly not drum corps fans but instead regular civilians) paid little attention to the drum corps performances taking place until BD took the field, at which point this non drum-corps crowd did something astonishing.. they actually watched the performance and they loved what they saw. The same weekend a family friend who knows nothing about drum corps attended one of the shows... their reaction... "Interesting activity, very entertaining stuff across all groups, and WOW BD is so much better than everyone else!"

This is a marketable product accessible to non drum-corps, non marching-band people and it is good for the activity.

Lastly, I know there are many people on these forums who believe Blue Devils perform "non-demanding" programs musically and visually. In my opinion that is absolutely false. Look at the athleticism of their performers the next time you see them live, it is awesome! As is that of other groups.

Thoughts?

[BRASSO]

Somewhere, and English teacher is crying.

I agree. ( We see " and " used for " an ".)

Edited July 12, 2010 by BRASSO

[jetman1287]

Why does your ellipsis have too many dots? Somewhere, and English teacher is crying.

[soccerguy315]

I agree. ( We see " and " used for " an ".)

I knew I should've gone the other way and written it like this (I even read it twice to make sure I didn't do something like that, lol): Why does you're ellipsis has to many dots?

[Bob984]

I don't agree. Brass judges, by and large, understand what constitutes brass "what" and "how". I'm sure if you were to look at the BD book, their staff could show you plenty of examples to justify their scores.

Here I do agree. It would seem like Music Effect is one area where there are big, obvious differences between Cadets and BD. So you'd expect to see a spread that reflects that. Instead, the spread basically says "these two groups were equivalent and I made a judgement call for Cadets". It's hard to understand how you get that result from the plain language on the sheets.

Basically, I'd agree with some of the BD supporters on this thread that BD is in another world from the Cadets in terms of visual design, and therefore deserves big spreads in visual effect. It may not be my cup of tea, but there's a lot of sophistication there and I can see why it's being rewarded. It's hard to understand why the converse isn't true of their music designs.

I am a music educator with a BS in Music Ed, and an MM in performance, 35 years in this activity, a championship ring, and a published arranger. I think I am qualified to compare the two brass books. There is a noticeably higher level of demand in the brass book of the Cadets when compared to BD. BD does play well, and I am not saying that they don't have demand, but the ensemble demand, especially articulation, is not comparable overall.

I have watched the shows many times.........I think BD EXECUTES visually, but I do not see the superiority in visual design..............

We agree on the music effect debacle........

GB

[Bob984]

Thanks for linking to that - I knew GE was always a nebulous idea, but this is absolutely "just make up a number" kind of stuff.

Mike

At the last Madison championship show, I was sitting behind a few hall of famers at semis.........after all of the scores were announced, I saw the hall of famer arranger turn to the person next to him, and was perplexed by the results.........announcer Steve R. was talking to him a minute later, and made a comment that you never would hear on the broadcast.......

"the system's broken, isn't it....."

GB

[84BDsop]

Booing:

If a a corps is performing or just finished performing and get booed; the corps is getting booed.

If the boos come during the announcement of the scores; the score, score spread or judging is getting booed.

Please do not get these two types of booing mixed up.

You must've missed this from earlier in this thread:

Actually, haters gonna hate does explain a lot of the comments here. But, not all. However, the constant comments about lack of demand, judges choosing winners before the contest, music being non-musical, etc... take their toll on performers as well as fans. I happen to know a lot of current members, and they certainly believe that the hatred is directed at them. For instance, booing. Another instance, comments like they have the easiest (lack of demand) show of any of the top number of corps. happen to get personal as the members rightfully understand that many of those making the comments believe that their medals are not earned.

It doesn't matter when the booing happens...the damage is still done.