The Kids work hard, but I still don't like it.

[WarriorHal]

Just some observations

1. Madison played "Slaughter" and "Rhapsody" in 1975. The show included "MacArthur Park". If Madison had included that last in their current program, methinks the audience would have swooned at the end, calling for an emergency INT to supply oxygen. Actually, I wouldn't have minded having a hit of that after witnessing the opening statement in A-town this year, in row 28 on the 45 yl. (in Franklin Field, too)

2. Loud is Beautiful - Jim Ott (RIP)

3. If a corps were to attempt "Stairway to Heaven" (Led Zeppelin) and other rock classics, a rock guitar would not only be required, it would, perhaps, be mandatory per the geriatric crowd. (see sig for "geriatricity" )

BTW, the rookie WC corps Teal Sound is admired for maintaining their own identity and not trying to be "like everybody else." Really good hornline, too. Balancing the voices will add in time.

4. I got the impression the OP was sorely disappointed because everybody was like everybody else. The OP said, "I left early." We do not know how early, and may not have seen the entire show.

6. That bundle of pipes in G required certain skills to play in tune and is difficult to do, but can be played loud by anyone. Bb instruments (and F as well) require those same skills, not as difficult to play in tune, and can be played equally as loud, if not louder. It seems to me that when Bb's were introduced, corps simply held back some to gain more control of intonation. They have recently discovered that with reasonably good training you can cut loose, blow your brains out, and maintain a good quality. I, for one, love it.

END

I think this fellow old-timer has a lot of wisdom.

I'll add that I wouldn't expect the youngsters to fully appreciate and enjoy the old shows, especially the slow-moving visual. And I wouldn't expect the older guys to like the changes in rules and style that have transformed drum corps into something almost unrecognizable compared to those earlier decades. It's a generation gap

When you reach the point that you can't overlook the parts you don't like and the negative starts to overwhelm the positive, then it's time to move on. For me, when I hear that first clarinet or sax on the field, playing into a mic no doubt, that's my cue to leave and not look back.

Edited August 9, 2010 by WarriorHal

[bluecoats88]

also - corps have been changing the original music parts for as long as they've been arranging for corps shows. Do you really think that holst's Planets symphony was less than 12 minutes long? or all of the music in west side story could be squeezed into a drum corps show?

[gimpy]

I think this fellow old-timer has a lot of wisdom.

I'll add that I wouldn't expect the youngsters to fully appreciate and enjoy the old shows, especially the slow-moving visual. And I wouldn't expect the older guys to like the changes in rules and style that has transformed drum corps into something almost unrecognizable compared to those earlier decades. It's a generation gap

When you reach the point that you can't overlook the parts you don't like and the negative starts to overwhelm the positive, then it's time to move on. For me, when I hear that first clarinet or sax on the field, playing into a mic no doubt, that's my cue to leave and not look back.

Agreed.

And yep, woodwinds in the pit would irk me a lot, stick 'em on the field and I'm out. I think I'd be able to let go and not come back years later to post an angry manifesto on DCP.

[TerriTroop]

The real thing that I get out of posts like the OP's is this:

People in the stands generally want to connect in a visceral way to a corps' performance. We all know that tastes vary, and I think it behooves us to encourage more diversity in style and approach in this medium so more tastes can be met. This is not the first time a "legacy fan" has asserted that too many corps seem to be following a similar formula to their programming. That observation is not limited to legacy fans, either.

The answer? More points for how well kids are doing what they are given to do and less points for the whims of the people pushing dots around on the music software and the drill software. I'm not saying completely take away points for design, just give the kids on the field a little more control over their performance scores. It's an easy fix, and it would work. Period. (IMNSHO )

[dave27th]

Could you explain to me what is so hard to understand about any of the shows of the top 12 this year?

I am going to start my reply with I am also one of those "old farts", although I did march in a competitive all-age corps until 2005. The only show I could attend this year is Atlanta, and I enjoyed the show immensely, in fact, I enjoyed the show this year more than any in the last few years. I thought there was a lot of innovation shown this year and I was very impressed with it. I did not care for the electronics. I thought they overshadowed a lot of horn lines and I really dislike the artificial tone opposing the natural horn and drum sound.

Having said that, I believe that you really don't understand what a lot of these posters are talking about. I think you can look at the difference between drum corps today and yesterday as the difference between the opera and popular music. Opera is sophisticated and subtle and usually in italian or something while pop music is powerful, easy to understand, written for the fans and is usually meant to give you a good time without always having to look for the hidden meaning. Which is more popular? I don't know about most fans, but I don't really want to go to a drum corps show to lean the nuances of Shostakovich. I go to have my face blown off with great marching, a powerful and loud hornline and a drumline that plays the entire show and has a kicka** snareline. I don't want to analyze, I want entertainment.

You can say anything you like about your perception of a lack of quality and the simplicity of drum corps back in the day, but I will contend that they put a lot more fans in the seats than the corps of today. There were a lot of 'name' shows such as the National Dream and the U.S. Open that existed along with D.C.I. that drew thousands of fans. Some of the reasons for this, IMO, is that there were a lot more drum corps back then. If I counted correctly, there were about 305 competing junior corps in 1979, compared to somewhere around 80 today(I don't know the exact number). Of course, quality varied widely, and I won't pretend that there weren't some horrible corps back then, but you will always get that in large number like that. This made drum corps more accessible to the average fan, because they could go to more shows, and very likely, they had a local corps to cheer for. These shows were geared more to fans than judges, with many high points and complete melodies. This number of corps also made it more accessible for average musicians as you didn't have to be a music major and sell your left kidney to be in a drum corps. Also, there were a lot of traditions being followed that got the fans revved up before the show even started, like Bones with the Crossmen. You can say what you want, but if you watch video of shows back then, it was very common for fans to be on their feet for the entire show, cheering and applauding wildly. Today's shows are much more complicated, and technically proficient due to instrument changes, blah, blah, blah, but they are ultimately more boring because they are approaching the activity like opera, not pop music in the majority of cases.

In conclusion, I think fans 'don't get it', because they want entertainment, not education. Of course this will change as the members of today get older and become spectators, since they will have matured with the 'drum corps as education' idea. However, a lot of the paying spectators today are my age, and, personally, that is what I want. I don't care so much about the b-flat horn change, except I think bugles are a lot more exciting to listen to, or the amping of pits, but I detest synthesizers and electric guitars, they never seem to be mixed right and detract from the show as a whole.

Let me tell you, I saw my first drum corps in 1976 at the Pontiac Silverdome and upon seeing the 27th Lancers (What an awesome drum corps, I was so lucky to be able to march with them, even if it was only for one year) I was hooked for life and I still love it today!

There you go, my .02 worth.

Dave McBurney

Sagainaires 1977

27th Lancers 1979 and 1994

Heat Wave of Orlando 1993 to 2005

AND the father of

Shannon McBurney

Heat Wave of Orlando on and off

Spirit of Atlanta 1998

AND the father of

Sean McBurney

Suncoast Sound 1993 and 1995

Spirit of Atlanta 1996 to 1999

Who happened to be in the first electronic ensemble to win DCI I&E 1996

[Liahona]

In the last 7 years, I'd venture to say we've all experienced tv shows, movies, restaurants, places we've gone, things we've tried that were new, etc that we " hated ".... sure, we could soften the comment by saying " disliked ", but it's just semantics really. If we said we " hate it " or disliked " it... it's really the same thing.

Plus, kids want honesty above all else. If we tell them we like all the shows the last 7 years ,it lessens the value of when we tell them honestly that we " love their show". I know people that cant bring themselves to be critical and brutally honest. After awhile, I tune them out. When somebody tells me that in 7 years they never saw a Corps performance not to their liking, I immediately think a) they're lying or b) they have a very, VERY low threshold of enjoyment levels as a paying cutsomer for a product, and shouldn't really be taken seriously, as they'll simply like everything and anything put out in front of them.

Here are my favorites from the last 7 seasons...I LOVE these...

2010-Madison Scouts

2009-Boston Crusaders 'The Core of Temptation'

2008-Phantom Regiment 'Spartacus'

2007-Carolina Crown-'Triple Crown'

2006-The Cavaliers 'Machine'

2005-Phantom Regiment 'Rhapsody'

2004-The cavaliers '007'

Here are the ones from the last 7 seasons...I HATED these...

2010-Santa Clara Vanguard 'Bartók'

2009-Phantom Regiment 'The Red Violin'

2008-Madison Scouts 'La Noche de la Iguana - Inteligencia, Pasión, Progreso'

2007-The Cadets 'This I Believe. Truth, Value and the Personal Experience Called Drum Corps'

2006-Glassmen 'Beethoven: Mastery & Madness'

2005-Blue Devils 'Dance Derby of the Century'

2004-Boston Crusaders 'The Composition of Color'

Edited August 9, 2010 by Liahona

[JimF-LowBari]

One point I simply CAN NOT agree with is that G bugles were hands down louder!

The first year I marched was 2nd year that Bb horns were allowed in competition. Most Div I corps were still on Gs. Having a point of comparison with corps going on back-to-back that were G or Bb over the years I can not say that any one key was consistently louder than the other. I never heard Cadets on G bugles live (they went Bb in 2000?) but I have always known that hornline to deliver the volume. Madison has always had some sizzle and that didn't change when they went Bb. I don't think I've heard more heart-stopping intensity than from 08 PR and that was a Bb hornline.

If brass staffs teach the members to play loud, they will play loud. Playing loud (with quality) isn't something you just turn on. I played louder in drum corps than I would have ever imagined or considered playing in any concert or marching band i was ever in. It's all about staying within the ensemble. None of us were ever pushed to that volume level in our school music programs so we never had to develop that skill at that level. I don't think the key has a thing to do with it. Brass fundamentals are brass fundamentals.

Never played Bb valved horns )I'm a trombone player) but would think a different length of lead pipe doesn't make that much (try none) of a difference. That's remembering my old instructions (late 70s) of playing as loud as I could at certain spots without losing the tone (can be done if you're careful). From what I read today of blend, blend and blend the volume part has definitely taken a back seat. Seriously my dynamic instructions kinda boiled down to: "If you can't hear the guy next to you, you're too loud. If you can hear the guy next too you, you're not loud enough

The "dino" crowd talks about how "music was first and visual was second" but a lot of those old hornlines may have been loud, but their sound quality was not so hot. I'm not music historian, but I think the advent of the valves was a really good thing for brass horns. Hornlines of the last 15 or so years have much better characteristic brass sound.

Live drum corps is always better than recorded drum corps. And recording devices "in the day" probably didn't catch the same things you heard in real life. Having said that, I am sure the dino crowd has a different memory of this time than any recording could ever convey.

No arguement from the guy who played piston/rotor for 6 years. I'll just bring up my NSHO that the horns then were closer to a "modified Army signaling device" <$1 to me> than a symphonic instrument. IOW, loudness was more bred into those horns than todays. And I'm back that opinion with my current experiences on a Kanstul 3 valve in G.

Beginning to like how this lady thinks....

Edited August 9, 2010 by JimF-LowBari

[tommytimp]

Sidebar your honor.....

Permission to treat the poster as hostile....

In the 7 years I've been around this wonderful activity, I've never seen a show I hated. Anyone having been around and seen the amount of time committed to putting together these 11 minute shows should be ashamed to utter anything close to hate.

disliked

not my cup of tea

forgetful

or perhaps they seemed like the other 5 corps that had come on before them.

and its perfectly fine to be perplexed why corp X is not scoring better.

Since being able to go back and watch the older shows everyone raves about, some of them are really cool, And easily seen as groundbreaking, some just not my cup of tea since normally I'm comparing them to the much faster movements I'm seeing today.

Your witness....

Your argument is valid. But the plaintiff's opinions are his own, and as he is not "hating on" the kids, as he takes pains to note, we find the term "hate," however inflamed or inflammatory to some eyes and ears, to be acceptable, especially as his argument, like it or not, is clearly presented.

Please proceed.

[WOOHOO]

I am going to start my reply with I am also one of those "old farts", although I did march in a competitive all-age corps until 2005. The only show I could attend this year is Atlanta, and I enjoyed the show immensely, in fact, I enjoyed the show this year more than any in the last few years. I thought there was a lot of innovation shown this year and I was very impressed with it. I did not care for the electronics. I thought they overshadowed a lot of horn lines and I really dislike the artificial tone opposing the natural horn and drum sound.

Having said that, I believe that you really don't understand what a lot of these posters are talking about. I think you can look at the difference between drum corps today and yesterday as the difference between the opera and popular music. Opera is sophisticated and subtle and usually in italian or something while pop music is powerful, easy to understand, written for the fans and is usually meant to give you a good time without always having to look for the hidden meaning. Which is more popular? I don't know about most fans, but I don't really want to go to a drum corps show to lean the nuances of Shostakovich. I go to have my face blown off with great marching, a powerful and loud hornline and a drumline that plays the entire show and has a kicka** snareline. I don't want to analyze, I want entertainment.

You can say anything you like about your perception of a lack of quality and the simplicity of drum corps back in the day, but I will contend that they put a lot more fans in the seats than the corps of today. There were a lot of 'name' shows such as the National Dream and the U.S. Open that existed along with D.C.I. that drew thousands of fans. Some of the reasons for this, IMO, is that there were a lot more drum corps back then. If I counted correctly, there were about 305 competing junior corps in 1979, compared to somewhere around 80 today(I don't know the exact number). Of course, quality varied widely, and I won't pretend that there weren't some horrible corps back then, but you will always get that in large number like that. This made drum corps more accessible to the average fan, because they could go to more shows, and very likely, they had a local corps to cheer for. These shows were geared more to fans than judges, with many high points and complete melodies. This number of corps also made it more accessible for average musicians as you didn't have to be a music major and sell your left kidney to be in a drum corps. Also, there were a lot of traditions being followed that got the fans revved up before the show even started, like Bones with the Crossmen. You can say what you want, but if you watch video of shows back then, it was very common for fans to be on their feet for the entire show, cheering and applauding wildly. Today's shows are much more complicated, and technically proficient due to instrument changes, blah, blah, blah, but they are ultimately more boring because they are approaching the activity like opera, not pop music in the majority of cases.

In conclusion, I think fans 'don't get it', because they want entertainment, not education. Of course this will change as the members of today get older and become spectators, since they will have matured with the 'drum corps as education' idea. However, a lot of the paying spectators today are my age, and, personally, that is what I want. I don't care so much about the b-flat horn change, except I think bugles are a lot more exciting to listen to, or the amping of pits, but I detest synthesizers and electric guitars, they never seem to be mixed right and detract from the show as a whole.

Let me tell you, I saw my first drum corps in 1976 at the Pontiac Silverdome and upon seeing the 27th Lancers (What an awesome drum corps, I was so lucky to be able to march with them, even if it was only for one year) I was hooked for life and I still love it today!

There you go, my .02 worth.

Dave McBurney

Sagainaires 1977

27th Lancers 1979 and 1994

Heat Wave of Orlando 1993 to 2005

AND the father of

Shannon McBurney

Heat Wave of Orlando on and off

Spirit of Atlanta 1998

AND the father of

Sean McBurney

Suncoast Sound 1993 and 1995

Spirit of Atlanta 1996 to 1999

Who happened to be in the first electronic ensemble to win DCI I&E 1996

I thought that was a well though out post that brought up a lot of good points. However, it did not answer the question I asked. You were speaking in terms of entertainment vs education, and I was talking the intelligibility of today's drum corps shows. What you are saying is completely valid, just unrelated.

BTW, Opera is probably the easiest music to understand conceptually. Basic light vs dark, good vs evil, love conquers all thinking that most people can relate to. The music isn't even that deep.

[JimF-LowBari]

I KNOW as a member I preferred if you kept the negative stuff about our show to yourself. I never heard negative stuff (never marched a "controversial' show), but all of the members are working way too hard to have the patience to deal with "the amps are too loud".

LOL, had a few charts that flat out sucked and we let the staff know in mature ways.

Usual answer was: "Yeah we know, too ####### late to change it!".

And like the thought going thru of visual based (today) vs musically based (BITD). I'm almost totally musically based and only DVDs I have are from the year I missed going to DCA and from before my time (plus the POS I'm actually in). DCI going more and more visual would be another reason (besides things that get plugged in) why current DCI leaves me cold.

Edited August 9, 2010 by JimF-LowBari