Cadets2

[nemesiscorps]

I know... I was just bustin'.

I do agree with your point that the alumni corps and mini-corps are certainly, in people's minds, much more associated with DCA than DCI, even though there's no formal tie-in. Maybe some day there will be a formal affiliation... I don't know.

I admit that I'm uninformed here, but isn't it true that DCA runs an annual championship event specifically for Alumni Corps and Mini-Corps? They call them the Alumni Corps Competition and the Mini-Corps Competition. They crown a champion every year in both of those "classes." Is that really considered informal?

Why would the Open Class and Class "A" competitions be considered formal, but not the other two? And is the well attended event called the I&E "competition" also informal?

Back on topic:

I think YEA! is taking advantage of the "all-age" aspect of DCA by taking it to a literal extreme, knowing that the spirit of DCA's purpose is rooted in a clear distinction from the junior corps activity, specifically post-DCI age limits. Yes, they've relaxed (maybe even embraced moving beyond) the "senior corps" identity, but it's still at the heart of who they are. Imagine if The Cadets (or BD, Crown, etc.) did decide to march into the DCA Championships after DCI finals in August. After all, "all-age" is all-age. I understand we're talking (theoretically) about a different "level" of performer in Cadets2, but what if they decided to take their other corps into the all-age circuit too. To me it seems to wreak of the U.S.A. "Dream Team" approach to Olympic Basketball.

If they want Cadets2 to play in the DCA world, why not simply open it up to all ages from the very start, rather than imply that that may happen at some point down the road? DCA opened its doors to all ages to be more inclusive... YEA! is taking advantage of that and fielding a corps with closed doors that excludes the central base of the DCA market age group. Why? No one here has an issue with that? If not, it's probably because they haven't been in a retreat line lately, wondering how much longer their body can take this, while they're standing next to a "kid" that they've just competed against in another corps (who's younger than their own kids), and at the moment, clearly not experiencing the same level of fatigue. Marching a corps aged 16-22 in the DCA circuit holds a clear advantage over most other corps. It mocks the very reason why we've always had Junior Corps, Senior Corps, and even Cadet Corps competitive circuits. If I were a DCA marching member, I'd probably be rethinking my future participation on the field... which I am.

All things being equal, there'd be no problem... but that's the problem, all things don't appear to be equal from the very inception of Cadets2. There's nothing that says they can't/won't change their minds on how they run that group. They could easily end up putting in tons more hours of practice that traditional DCA marching members would never have the time (or physical ability) to match. And naturally, they'll likely crank out shows with physical demands that probably exceed the physical abilities of many of the current DCA marching members. I personally love the flavor of shows and atmosphere at DCA events, while I'm generally bored by today's DCI product and environment, and I suspect that a Cadets2 brand would look and feel all too familiar, based upon what I'm hearing (and I'm not talking about performance quality here).

One of the reasons so many people get turned off by G.H. is because he always seems to be pushing to change the rules in ways that benefit his own philosophy or agenda, while others suffer a loss in one way or another. There's a place for a 16-22 year old Cadets2, it's called DCI Open Class. There's also a place for an all-age Cadets2, it's called DCA, and under those circumstances, I'd enthusiastically welcome them aboard. Unlike DCI, DCA generally still has a sense of parity among the participants, but unfortunately it appears that that's about to change. Please forgive my lack of enthusiasm.

[CuriousMe]

As others have said, I don't think that the intent of limiting the age range is to create a competitive advantage....I think it's to stay true to YEA's mission as a youth organization. Because of their geographical location, DCA provides the most competitive opportunities for a weekend corps.

Everything I've seen from the corps speaks to wanting to provide a Cadet experience for youth who can't afford either the time or money of going on tour all summer long. This group is likely a different demographic than those who are trying out for Cadets, so I'm not sure how effective a feeder corps Cadets2 will be.

I don't see that YEA is taking advantage of anything, as has been mentioned before corps have limited the bottom of the age range in the past, YEA is just limiting to the top end. If DCA really doesn't want that, they have the ability to mandate a true all-age corps. From all reports, they've not only chosen to not do that, but have responded pretty enthusiastically to YEA's plan. This isn't a case of George Hopkins changing anything, this is a case of YEA operating within the set rules.

I admit that I'm uninformed here, but isn't it true that DCA runs an annual championship event specifically for Alumni Corps and Mini-Corps? They call them the Alumni Corps Competition and the Mini-Corps Competition. They crown a champion every year in both of those "classes." Is that really considered informal?

Why would the Open Class and Class "A" competitions be considered formal, but not the other two? And is the well attended event called the I&E "competition" also informal?

Back on topic:

I think YEA! is taking advantage of the "all-age" aspect of DCA by taking it to a literal extreme, knowing that the spirit of DCA's purpose is rooted in a clear distinction from the junior corps activity, specifically post-DCI age limits. Yes, they've relaxed (maybe even embraced moving beyond) the "senior corps" identity, but it's still at the heart of who they are. Imagine if The Cadets (or BD, Crown, etc.) did decide to march into the DCA Championships after DCI finals in August. After all, "all-age" is all-age. I understand we're talking (theoretically) about a different "level" of performer in Cadets2, but what if they decided to take their other corps into the all-age circuit too. To me it seems to wreak of the U.S.A. "Dream Team" approach to Olympic Basketball.

If they want Cadets2 to play in the DCA world, why not simply open it up to all ages from the very start, rather than imply that that may happen at some point down the road? DCA opened its doors to all ages to be more inclusive... YEA! is taking advantage of that and fielding a corps with closed doors that excludes the central base of the DCA market age group. Why? No one here has an issue with that? If not, it's probably because they haven't been in a retreat line lately, wondering how much longer their body can take this, while they're standing next to a "kid" that they've just competed against in another corps (who's younger than their own kids), and at the moment, clearly not experiencing the same level of fatigue. Marching a corps aged 16-22 in the DCA circuit holds a clear advantage over most other corps. It mocks the very reason why we've always had Junior Corps, Senior Corps, and even Cadet Corps competitive circuits. If I were a DCA marching member, I'd probably be rethinking my future participation on the field... which I am.

All things being equal, there'd be no problem... but that's the problem, all things don't appear to be equal from the very inception of Cadets2. There's nothing that says they can't/won't change their minds on how they run that group. They could easily end up putting in tons more hours of practice that traditional DCA marching members would never have the time (or physical ability) to match. And naturally, they'll likely crank out shows with physical demands that probably exceed the physical abilities of many of the current DCA marching members. I personally love the flavor of shows and atmosphere at DCA events, while I'm generally bored by today's DCI product and environment, and I suspect that a Cadets2 brand would look and feel all too familiar, based upon what I'm hearing (and I'm not talking about performance quality here).

One of the reasons so many people get turned off by G.H. is because he always seems to be pushing to change the rules in ways that benefit his own philosophy or agenda, while others suffer a loss in one way or another. There's a place for a 16-22 year old Cadets2, it's called DCI Open Class. There's also a place for an all-age Cadets2, it's called DCA, and under those circumstances, I'd enthusiastically welcome them aboard. Unlike DCI, DCA generally still has a sense of parity among the participants, but unfortunately it appears that that's about to change. Please forgive my lack of enthusiasm.

Edited May 1, 2011 by CuriousMe

[The Oz]

After a bit, I get Cadets2 now. I get why DCA vs. DCI (though I still don't get DCA in general).

<snip for brevity>

What's “to get”?

DCA is a drum corps association. It predates DCI. In fact, the early success of DCA encouraged the formation of “the combine” and DCI.

If you want to march after you age out, DCA provides that opportunity. If you can't afford the time or the fees for touring, DCA allows for time outside drum corps to have a job and a (somewhat normal) life. If you simply enjoy performing, playing a horn or drum, or doing whatever it is color guard folks do, DCA will welcome you, find a place for you, and teach you many of the skills you need to participate.

What's so difficult to understand? It's drum corps.

DCA will welcome Cadets2. Mr. Hopkins already knows the DCA folks quite well and they know him. He knows what he is getting into and DCA knows what he brings to the table. Should be fun.

[Fran Haring]

I admit that I'm uninformed here, but isn't it true that DCA runs an annual championship event specifically for Alumni Corps and Mini-Corps? They call them the Alumni Corps Competition and the Mini-Corps Competition. They crown a champion every year in both of those "classes." Is that really considered informal?

Why would the Open Class and Class "A" competitions be considered formal, but not the other two? And is the well attended event called the I&E "competition" also informal?

The mini-corps show and I&E events on the DCA weekend are competitions. The alumni show is an exhibition show, not judged...no champion crowned.

You're right, the difference between "formal and informal affiliation" is a bit tough to explain.

But none of the mini-corps nor alumni corps are formally affiliated with DCA.... meaning they are not members of the DCA organization. DCA does not find events for the mini-corps and alumni corps to participate in.... those corps go to show sponsors and make their own deals. DCA is not the formal "umbrella circuit" for those corps. Several mini-corps are members of Mini-Corps Associates (last I heard, anyway) and there is no formal circuit for the alumni corps.

I guess one way to put it is: DCA is just one of the "sponsors" that hosts a mini-corps show and an alumni show. There are/have been various other mini-corps, I&E and alumni shows through the years (indoors and outdoors) that are run by other sponsors, not by DCA.

For example, say the Reading Buccaneers decided to add a mini-corps competition to the summer show that corps sponsors. The Bucs would invite whatever mini-corps they wanted for the show.... the winning mini-corps would be crowned the champion of that show.... but the mini-corps at that show would NOT be formally affiliated with the Buccaneer organization.

Same thing with DCA, and the alumni show and mini-corps show on Labor Day weekend.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer!!! Or perhaps I just made things as clear as mud.

And please remember, I am NOT speaking officially for DCA.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Fran Haring

[Fran Haring]

What's “to get”?

DCA is a drum corps association. It predates DCI. In fact, the early success of DCA encouraged the formation of “the combine” and DCI.

If you want to march after you age out, DCA provides that opportunity. If you can't afford the time or the fees for touring, DCA allows for time outside drum corps to have a job and a (somewhat normal) life. If you simply enjoy performing, playing a horn or drum, or doing whatever it is color guard folks do, DCA will welcome you, find a place for you, and teach you many of the skills you need to participate.

What's so difficult to understand? It's drum corps.

DCA will welcome Cadets2. Mr. Hopkins already knows the DCA folks quite well and they know him. He knows what he is getting into and DCA knows what he brings to the table. Should be fun.

What Jim said. Completely agree.

[BRASSO]

What's “to get”?

DCA is a drum corps association. It predates DCI. In fact, the early success of DCA encouraged the formation of “the combine” and DCI.

If you want to march after you age out, DCA provides that opportunity. If you can't afford the time or the fees for touring, DCA allows for time outside drum corps to have a job and a (somewhat normal) life. If you simply enjoy performing, playing a horn or drum, or doing whatever it is color guard folks do, DCA will welcome you, find a place for you, and teach you many of the skills you need to participate.

What's so difficult to understand? It's drum corps.

DCA will welcome Cadets2. Mr. Hopkins already knows the DCA folks quite well and they know him. He knows what he is getting into and DCA knows what he brings to the table. Should be fun.

Exactly. Those that are familiar ( or desire to be ) of the history of the Drum Corps movement, should understand that it was Senior Corps from the DCA Circuit that first broke away from the the Veteran Organizations over gate receipts, disparate judging sheets between the VFW and the American Legion that required specific adaptations in performance competition preparation, and for other reasons. They did so, and called their Senior Corps circuit.." DCA". A few years later, a handful of Corps Directors in the Junior Corps ( called themselves " the Combine ") sought out the advice and guidance of a few of the Executive Board members in DCA as to how to properly navigate the transition out of the Veteran Organizations as well, and form their own Junior Circuit.... which the Junior Corps Directors from " The Combine " subsequently did. They named their new Junior Corps organization " DCI ".

Edited May 1, 2011 by BRASSO

[Big Bad Bari]

Exactly. Those that are familiar ( or desire to be ) of the history of the Drum Corps movement, should understand that it was Senior Corps from the DCA Circuit that first broke away from the the Veteran Organizations over gate receipts, disparate judging sheets between the VFW and the American Legion that required specific adaptations in performance competition preparation, and for other reasons. They did so, and called their Senior Corps circuit.." DCA". A few years later, a handful of Corps Directors in the Junior Corps ( called themselves " the Combine ") sought out the advice and guidance of a few of the Executive Board members in DCA as to how to properly navigate the transition out of the Veteran Organizations as well, and form their own Junior Circuit.... which the Junior Corps Directors from " The Combine " subsequently did. They named their new Junior Corps organization " DCI ".

Ok, So then DCA is Satan? Or is it DCI that is Satan? I am really confised here... Who am I supposed to hate again?

[JimF-LowBari]

Ok, So then DCA is Satan? Or is it DCI that is Satan? I am really confised here... Who am I supposed to hate again?

You did both , you're screwed....

And to add to Frans response (which I just caught ) about DCA and Alumni/Minis. From what I've read Mickey Petrone late president of DCA started the Alumni show but forget the full details. IIRC, the Alumni, Mini and I&E portions are a way to have more than just Prelims and Finals on DCA Weekend to give fans more incentive to come out and enjoy themselves. At the time DCA was having a low period so, to their credit, they changed the "same old, same old" way of doing things and this area worked out well. Beat the Hades out of Prelims and Finals on the same day and nothing else....

As for the Mini competiton and Alumni "Spectacular". DCA sets up and hosts the shows and handles making sure the corps can have their shows legally recorded and sold.

Main word here is host with I&E, Mini and Alumnis, they are not part of DCA itself.

Edited May 1, 2011 by JimF-LowBari

[Fran Haring]

Exactly. Those that are familiar ( or desire to be ) of the history of the Drum Corps movement, should understand that it was Senior Corps from the DCA Circuit that first broke away from the the Veteran Organizations over gate receipts, disparate judging sheets between the VFW and the American Legion that required specific adaptations in performance competition preparation, and for other reasons. They did so, and called their Senior Corps circuit.." DCA". A few years later, a handful of Corps Directors in the Junior Corps ( called themselves " the Combine ") sought out the advice and guidance of a few of the Executive Board members in DCA as to how to properly navigate the transition out of the Veteran Organizations as well, and form their own Junior Circuit.... which the Junior Corps Directors from " The Combine " subsequently did. They named their new Junior Corps organization " DCI ".

Heh.... a few years back, I remember someone talking about the "best shows of all time"... and that person meant from 1972 to the present.

I thought..... "all time" means "all time."

After all... time, for drum corps and everything else, did exist before 1972.

[danielray]

I admit that I'm uninformed here, but isn't it true that DCA runs an annual championship event specifically for Alumni Corps and Mini-Corps? They call them the Alumni Corps Competition and the Mini-Corps Competition. They crown a champion every year in both of those "classes." Is that really considered informal?

Why would the Open Class and Class "A" competitions be considered formal, but not the other two? And is the well attended event called the I&E "competition" also informal?

Back on topic:

I think YEA! is taking advantage of the "all-age" aspect of DCA by taking it to a literal extreme, knowing that the spirit of DCA's purpose is rooted in a clear distinction from the junior corps activity, specifically post-DCI age limits. Yes, they've relaxed (maybe even embraced moving beyond) the "senior corps" identity, but it's still at the heart of who they are. Imagine if The Cadets (or BD, Crown, etc.) did decide to march into the DCA Championships after DCI finals in August. After all, "all-age" is all-age. I understand we're talking (theoretically) about a different "level" of performer in Cadets2, but what if they decided to take their other corps into the all-age circuit too. To me it seems to wreak of the U.S.A. "Dream Team" approach to Olympic Basketball.

If they want Cadets2 to play in the DCA world, why not simply open it up to all ages from the very start, rather than imply that that may happen at some point down the road? DCA opened its doors to all ages to be more inclusive... YEA! is taking advantage of that and fielding a corps with closed doors that excludes the central base of the DCA market age group. Why? No one here has an issue with that? If not, it's probably because they haven't been in a retreat line lately, wondering how much longer their body can take this, while they're standing next to a "kid" that they've just competed against in another corps (who's younger than their own kids), and at the moment, clearly not experiencing the same level of fatigue. Marching a corps aged 16-22 in the DCA circuit holds a clear advantage over most other corps. It mocks the very reason why we've always had Junior Corps, Senior Corps, and even Cadet Corps competitive circuits. If I were a DCA marching member, I'd probably be rethinking my future participation on the field... which I am.

All things being equal, there'd be no problem... but that's the problem, all things don't appear to be equal from the very inception of Cadets2. There's nothing that says they can't/won't change their minds on how they run that group. They could easily end up putting in tons more hours of practice that traditional DCA marching members would never have the time (or physical ability) to match. And naturally, they'll likely crank out shows with physical demands that probably exceed the physical abilities of many of the current DCA marching members. I personally love the flavor of shows and atmosphere at DCA events, while I'm generally bored by today's DCI product and environment, and I suspect that a Cadets2 brand would look and feel all too familiar, based upon what I'm hearing (and I'm not talking about performance quality here).

One of the reasons so many people get turned off by G.H. is because he always seems to be pushing to change the rules in ways that benefit his own philosophy or agenda, while others suffer a loss in one way or another. There's a place for a 16-22 year old Cadets2, it's called DCI Open Class. There's also a place for an all-age Cadets2, it's called DCA, and under those circumstances, I'd enthusiastically welcome them aboard. Unlike DCI, DCA generally still has a sense of parity among the participants, but unfortunately it appears that that's about to change. Please forgive my lack of enthusiasm.

As I understand this now, it isn't about necessarily creating a new ensemble because of necessarily wanting to be in DCA, but because they could create a local corps with some sort of outlet to perform.

Were they set on this group competing in DCI, it really isn't something that they could do right now... maybe later, but not right now. In their unique case, it could be that this group could build up enough traction and support that the organization could later have the means to take it on tour... which it could then move to the DCI circuit, but right now this is a very low barrier to entry to giving some kids an opportunity to do something in the summer.

Because of the USSBA connections, they could attract kids to make this a good experience for them. Any other organization trying to do this, I can't see it working. Well... Boston, maybe, but they are still quite far away from most DCA shows to have the same sort of benefit of a low cost of entry for such an experiment.