Upgrading the judges

[actucker]

From my point of view, I don't think the judge is a bad person, or is trying to bring unnecessary attention to himself. I think he is judging as best he has been taught in judging clinics and trainings. I think if the clinic instructors said "be aware of the performers and be aware of yourself and how you fit into the whole visual show" the judge would stand at attention on the yard line as he did briefly (with excellent posture, btw!) and not detract from the ending by continuing to move while EVERYTHING ELSE on the field had stopped.

I know it's a minor point, but corps move heaven and earth to dot their i's and cross their t's to bring a PERFECT product to the field. Can't the judges contribute as well, in their own small way?

There was actually quite a lot of really good guard body work going on in that clip. That's where my eye was drawn at first read, not the judge.

[BigW]

A staff should not have to teach an audience when to applaud. A well-dsigned program will have obvious moments when it happens.

And when it does not happen, obviously, the well designed moment that the staff thinks is so brilliant is obviously not.

Zingali and Prime didn't have to cheerlead to get the audience to react to their moments.

As for on-field judges- usually they move when the corps move for serious reasons:

-to get out of the way for something coming up so they're not run down

-more importantly, the judge is being asked to sample the entire group they're expected to be evaluating. You stand still in front of one group too long, you're not sampling, and you will be called on it. So, when a corps is tacet visually-- you will move around to hear the various sections and evaluate instead of parking your can in front of one section for a long period of time if you're evaluating brass.

You want to stop judges from interfering with the shows- you need to get them off the field and onto the track. Then.... the front ensemble drowns out the brass and blocks views for the visual person, and also prevents a good view and listening line to the battery. Then, complaints would arise because the judge isn't listening or out of position. Better yet, take them into the box, which is already crowded.

I've been on-field most of the time for 28 years and well over 150 contests. My age and some minor physical issues are moving me more to the box now. I know the deal and the games.

Obviously the DCI members want the on-field adjudication to continue for some good reason. DCA moved some judges back onto the field some time ago because their membership desired it. They could save money by eliminating the on field panel. Yet, they have not. There have to be very good reasons that the members have felt there is value to this.

I agree- if the show is engaging, you wouldn't care one whit about the guy trying to do their job as best they can in a rapidly changing evironment where they're trying to cogently provide insightful commentary, listen carefully, be situationally aware, and trying to avoid getting run down and potentially hurt a kid or 5. I dare you to try it some time. Maybe you'd be a bit more understanding and sympathetic. Get down there and give it a whirl, and.... best of luck.

[GUARDLING]

A staff should not have to teach an audience when to applaud. A well-dsigned program will have obvious moments when it happens.

And when it does not happen, obviously, the well designed moment that the staff thinks is so brilliant is obviously not.

Zingali and Prime didn't have to cheerlead to get the audience to react to their moments.

As for on-field judges- usually they move when the corps move for serious reasons:

-to get out of the way for something coming up so they're not run down

-more importantly, the judge is being asked to sample the entire group they're expected to be evaluating. You stand still in front of one group too long, you're not sampling, and you will be called on it. So, when a corps is tacet visually-- you will move around to hear the various sections and evaluate instead of parking your can in front of one section for a long period of time if you're evaluating brass.

You want to stop judges from interfering with the shows- you need to get them off the field and onto the track. Then.... the front ensemble drowns out the brass and blocks views for the visual person, and also prevents a good view and listening line to the battery. Then, complaints would arise because the judge isn't listening or out of position. Better yet, take them into the box, which is already crowded.

I've been on-field most of the time for 28 years and well over 150 contests. My age and some minor physical issues are moving me more to the box now. I know the deal and the games.

Obviously the DCI members want the on-field adjudication to continue for some good reason. DCA moved some judges back onto the field some time ago because their membership desired it. They could save money by eliminating the on field panel. Yet, they have not. There have to be very good reasons that the members have felt there is value to this.

I agree- if the show is engaging, you wouldn't care one whit about the guy trying to do their job as best they can in a rapidly changing evironment where they're trying to cogently provide insightful commentary, listen carefully, be situationally aware, and trying to avoid getting run down and potentially hurt a kid or 5. I dare you to try it some time. Maybe you'd be a bit more understanding and sympathetic. Get down there and give it a whirl, and.... best of luck.

I agree with most of what you are saying. I for 1 dont get with the way shows have gone over the years, with design and full visual as well as muscial impact why we still need field judges. So theres a mistake close up on the field. The tick system on up close mistakes has been gone for decades. I get what some percussion may say BUT hasn't the activity gone beyond the individual mistake that wouldnt be noticed unless youre on top of them?..Just askin....... AS far as George Z. He was a great man, a huge talent, a character beyond belief BUT YES he did teach others about his concepts, moments within a show and even stood sidline, ( backfield ) to be totally noticed and his reactions, even dancing, approving, etc etc..Kind of like what some here hate about staffs in the stands. He was one of a kind and for me anyway added to the flavor , color and even outrageous at times and IMO the activity is better for it.

Edited June 10, 2012 by GUARDLING

[actucker]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I for 1 dont get with the way shows have gone over the years, with design and full visual as well as muscial impact why we still need field judges. So theres a mistake close up on the field. The tick system on up close mistakes has been gone for decades. I get what some percussion may say BUT hasn't the activity gone beyond the individual mistake that wouldnt be noticed unless youre on top of them?..Just askin....... AS far as George Z. He was a great man, a huge talent, a character beyond belief BUT YES he did teach others about his concepts, moments within a show and even stood sidline, ( backfield ) to be totally noticed and his reactions, even dancing, approving, etc etc..Kind of like what some here hate about staffs in the stands. He was one of a kind and for me anyway added to the flavor , color and even outrageous at times and IMO the activity is better for it.

The problem with removing the field judges from a music stand point is that at the top level, there just isn't that huge a difference between the quality of the ensembles. You have to get down on field level to really start to find the differences. I would say that individual mistakes were absolutely the dividing line between Blue Devils and Cavaliers percussion sections last year. They both had incredible composition. They both achieved at an extremely high level. But from the stands, it would be very hard to say one was better than the other. Brass sections are very similar.

And yes, individual execution is still a part of the sheets on the music side (I can't speak to the guard side as I don't know those sheets particularly well). You really can't judge that from the stands when dealing with music.

[BigW]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I for 1 dont get with the way shows have gone over the years, with design and full visual as well as muscial impact why we still need field judges. So theres a mistake close up on the field. The tick system on up close mistakes has been gone for decades. I get what some percussion may say BUT hasn't the activity gone beyond the individual mistake that wouldnt be noticed unless youre on top of them?..Just askin....... AS far as George Z. He was a great man, a huge talent, a character beyond belief BUT YES he did teach others about his concepts, moments within a show and even stood sidline, ( backfield ) to be totally noticed and his reactions, even dancing, approving, etc etc..Kind of like what some here hate about staffs in the stands. He was one of a kind and for me anyway added to the flavor , color and even outrageous at times and IMO the activity is better for it.

Yes, George could get worked up in the stands, but it was genuine reaction for his kids.

I was lucky enough to be cliniced by him in 1984 and he was extremly specific about buildnig moments into the show that caused people to react. I can tell you he didn;t need to cheerlead with Cadets and Star, people *got* it.

Again, you make serious points about why it could be deemed obsolete- but the members of DCI and DCA are both saying this is worth doing. that's the bottom line here. They obviously believe it's something of value to them. I have my educated guesses as to why, but I'm hoping Mike Boo or someone more in touch with DCI's pulse can answer with some more direct knowledge and authority on why.

[GUARDLING]

Yes, George could get worked up in the stands, but it was genuine reaction for his kids.

I was lucky enough to be cliniced by him in 1984 and he was extremly specific about buildnig moments into the show that caused people to react. I can tell you he didn;t need to cheerlead with Cadets and Star, people *got* it.

Again, you make serious points about why it could be deemed obsolete- but the members of DCI and DCA are both saying this is worth doing. that's the bottom line here. They obviously believe it's something of value to them. I have my educated guesses as to why, but I'm hoping Mike Boo or someone more in touch with DCI's pulse can answer with some more direct knowledge and authority on why.

well I can tell you with the 2 corps I teach that the percussion feel its more necessary than the brass people BUT even percussion people ( in the corps I am with ) are also feeling like it isnt necessary. THEY ( not me ) feel maybe a lower spot in the stands or the trac is better.

As far as George, He was many things to many people I also had the privalage of working with him several times and how he EDUCATED some including judges into a different position from 1 show to another,. I actually saw him do it in a winter program from like 6th or 7th in a prelims to 1st in a finals...lol....gotta love him..yes he didnt have to prompt BUT he certainly became part of the show..thats for sure. I could be wrong BUT I do think the way we judge music as well as visual will in the next 5 years change drastically again and may or may not see field judges. BUT I do agree what the corps want or need will be the way it goes, as it should.

Edited June 10, 2012 by GUARDLING

[garfield]

Zingali and Prime didn't have to cheerlead to get the audience to react to their moments.

Funny you should mention this.

The first time I ever saw Zinagli was when he came bounding up the center aisle and parked his butt on the step right next to me. He screamed like a little girl. He led the crowd at nearly every hit point, and was hollering even during the ballad.

Thankfully, his display didn't dampen my reverence for his talent, because he found me several more times before he died, always hootin' and hollerin'.

He deserves a pass for his behavior, IMO, but even the best of the best like him love to see their creation come to life.

In his case it was irritating, but a real ball to watch his creative mind from the outside.

[jjeffeory]

Funny you should mention this.

The first time I ever saw Zinagli was when he came bounding up the center aisle and parked his butt on the step right next to me. He screamed like a little girl. He led the crowd at nearly every hit point, and was hollering even during the ballad.

Thankfully, his display didn't dampen my reverence for his talent, because he found me several more times before he died, always hootin' and hollerin'.

He deserves a pass for his behavior, IMO, but even the best of the best like him love to see their creation come to life.

In his case it was irritating, but a real ball to watch his creative mind from the outside.

Heh,

Zingali gets a pass!

[Jeff Ream]

Your opinion is good, and I think you are well qualified to have a thoughtful opinion about the small snippet I posted. But answering your point, in my view, the judge had 11.5 minutes to listen to the different parts of the line, who were 3 feel in front of him. The show was over, the corps had reached their final set position, and there was no need for that judge to be moving.

This is a serious question, are you defending the judge moving around, or are you arguing the contrary point? (devil's advocate)

From my point of view, I don't think the judge is a bad person, or is trying to bring unnecessary attention to himself. I think he is judging as best he has been taught in judging clinics and trainings. I think if the clinic instructors said "be aware of the performers and be aware of yourself and how you fit into the whole visual show" the judge would stand at attention on the yard line as he did briefly (with excellent posture, btw!) and not detract from the ending by continuing to move while EVERYTHING ELSE on the field had stopped.

I know it's a minor point, but corps move heaven and earth to dot their i's and cross their t's to bring a PERFECT product to the field. Can't the judges contribute as well, in their own small way?

field judges are told to be mindful. please note shows change daily, even sometimes at finals week. But, at field level, standing still does not allow you to sample fully. yeah they had 11.5 minutes, but you do realize every second is different right?

Sorry but asking the judge to stand at attention because the corps is at a hold is as stupid as asking staff to sit on their hands while their corps performs.

my suggestion...get a recorder, get on the field and try it. Having been one in the past who bashed judges for a lot of things I found stupid, when I finally did judge, those things weren't quite so stupid

[Jeff Ream]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I for 1 dont get with the way shows have gone over the years, with design and full visual as well as muscial impact why we still need field judges. So theres a mistake close up on the field. The tick system on up close mistakes has been gone for decades. I get what some percussion may say BUT hasn't the activity gone beyond the individual mistake that wouldnt be noticed unless youre on top of them?..Just askin....... AS far as George Z. He was a great man, a huge talent, a character beyond belief BUT YES he did teach others about his concepts, moments within a show and even stood sidline, ( backfield ) to be totally noticed and his reactions, even dancing, approving, etc etc..Kind of like what some here hate about staffs in the stands. He was one of a kind and for me anyway added to the flavor , color and even outrageous at times and IMO the activity is better for it.

a percussion mistake, especially in a dome, will be drowned out by amplified pit and 70+ brass. The DCI instructors themselves have voted to keep the field judges in place...why? Because they know in todays environment of speakers, plugs and bigger hornlines, things will never be heard otherwise