Upgrading the judges

[flammaster]

or perhaps they should have locations in different parts of the field and all the corps would have to move their shows around the judge spots?!?!?!

(hey then you could save your most exposed parts far away from that judge)

OK it was worth a shot I guess. hahaha

[actucker]

I understand what you're saying, but I really disagree. My opinion is that these are performances for a paying audience, not a practice sessions.

It IS a concert hall, not a football, baseball, or basketball game. Silence IS pretty much expected. That is the general rule and there are some exceptions. Anything else is just plain old rude.

So saying something during a performance would also be rude because it ruins the experience for everyone around. Two wrongs don't make a right...

Frankly, if it's not DCIs problem whose problem is it?

...and I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill either, but I've been going to shows for over 20 years; I have seen rude staffs ruin a performance for a whole row pretty much at all of the shows I've been to.. I do appreciate that this behavior doesn't bother you, but let's not minimize its' effect on other people.

I've been going to shows for 15 years, and I can honestly say, I've never gotten the vibe that silence was expected. Good things happen, people cheer. At no point have I ever been shushed, or or given the evil eye because I made a noise.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the 22 year old staff member doesn't realize that he's being disruptive? I'm not saying you have to yell at the guy, but unless you're willing to say something to him in a respectful manner, he may not even know that its a problem. The two wrongs don't make a right argument is a cop out. You're not going to disrupt the performance by quietly asking someone to quiet down so that you can hear. If you're not willing to take that step, then that's your problem. Its not DCI's responsibility to micromanage every person's actions in the stands.

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, or that a solution isn't possible, but the fact is, whether they paid for a ticket or not, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else. To insinuate otherwise is simply treating the staff members as second class citizens. Without their hard work, you wouldn't have a show to watch.

[soccerguy315]

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, or that a solution isn't possible, but the fact is, whether they paid for a ticket or not, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else. To insinuate otherwise is simply treating the staff members as second class citizens. Without their hard work, you wouldn't have a show to watch.

why do you say they have a right to be there? does the admin staff also get to sit in the aisles on the 45? what about the volunteers? what about the people from the local restaurant that donated a meal?

the fact is the stands are for the paying audience. that is why they sell tickets there.

[jjeffeory]

I've been going to shows for 15 years, and I can honestly say, I've never gotten the vibe that silence was expected. Good things happen, people cheer. At no point have I ever been shushed, or or given the evil eye because I made a noise.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the 22 year old staff member doesn't realize that he's being disruptive? I'm not saying you have to yell at the guy, but unless you're willing to say something to him in a respectful manner, he may not even know that its a problem. The two wrongs don't make a right argument is a cop out. You're not going to disrupt the performance by quietly asking someone to quiet down so that you can hear. If you're not willing to take that step, then that's your problem. Its not DCI's responsibility to micromanage every person's actions in the stands.

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, or that a solution isn't possible, but the fact is, whether they paid for a ticket or not, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else. To insinuate otherwise is simply treating the staff members as second class citizens. Without their hard work, you wouldn't have a show to watch.

I've been going to shows for around 25 years and it was always expected that we have common courtesy to other people around us and not talk and/or enter/exit during performances, which I have seen staff do frequently, so we have different experiences.

Of course it occurs to me, but they should be told not to be disruptive by corps management... Shouldn't it occur to them that they are being disruptive when they hoot and holler or do other inappropriate things ( Have manners, I mean they're 22 and all grown up, right)? I would think so, because it occurs to other staff who will come up and NOT be disruptive. So, it's possible for a reasonable staff person to think about that... It's DCI's responsibility to make sure that the corps staff are not being disruptive and disturbing the paying customer, not the paying customer. That's it. We disagree.

I don't think every staff does this, but too many staffs have behaved this way over a long period of time from California to Mass and all parts between.

I'm just saying.... It does happen, and I'm amazed at how often I've witnessed the behavior. Maybe you don't care, but I've watch people in the audience get upset and be disrupted by the staff who are totally oblivious. Sometimes I've seen it from the same staff from one show to another, cause, I've been to multiple shows in a row as a fan...

So, as in all things, some people don't care and do not change their behavior. Some people care and do change their behavior. Some people do not have the behavior. Probably some people don't have the behavior and then develop it later....

But it exists....

Edited June 8, 2012 by jjeffeory

[DarkHorner]

1. Mr. Cesario, you are World Class uniform designer. Is it possible to design a judge's uniform so they can BLEND IN to the background, instead of STANDING OUT?

2. Can judges be directed to move when the corps move, and stop moving when the corps stop? Nothing is more annoying than to see a corps "hit" a moving form into a dead standstill, both musically and visually, then watch a judge bring attention to himself by walking or running when EVERYTHING else on the field has stopped. It seems like common sense to me, but it has never been done by the judging community as a whole.

3. I have been a corps fan since 1980, and I have always feared the day when "fans" would count in the scoring. The reason being is that in years past I have heard corps staffs FLOOD the stairways of shows up and down the 50 while their corps is performing, screaming and whooping, and trying to "drum up" audience reaction by "teaching" the audience when to cheer for their idea of "big moments." It ruins the whole show for me,because I get angry at people standing in the aisles instead of cheering for the performers on the field. I don't go to shows to get angry. Can you speak to how DCI might address stopping corps staffs as a whole, from doing this BEFORE they start ruining shows for us fans?

To 1 and 2, I honestly have never been distracted by a judge on the field. It is not like they are out there in Bridgemen uniforms. The only time I notice judges is when the corps pulls off an awesome judge trap (Crown seems to have at least one good one per year).

To 3, I do not think that fans will have much impact on scoring. If these new sheets are in fact the same as the ones from the TOC shows, then I doubt there will be much difference. At DCI Murfreesboro last year, there was an absolutely huge bias towards Phantom as far as the crowd cheering went, yet the placement was no different than any other show.

Also, I have never experienced any disruption by corps staff members. I have seen them go into the stands, but they never seem to cheer obnoxiously or disruptively. In fact, I would merit that the most disruptive audience members at a show are the high school bands which regularly attend later season shows as a whole (not that I am against band directors exposing drum corps to their bands, but I try to sit away from group sections because there is only so much high pitched shrieking I can stand).

And to the others in the thread who say that you should be quiet during drum corps, well, I have never been to a show where the audience didn't absolutely flip for a few shows at least. And it is not a recent thing, I would like to see a single show where the audience simply claps like they are attending an orchestra performance. I am not advocating that one should talk during a show, but cheering, applauding, suddenly feeling the overwhelming need to jump to your feet, or whatever else you choose to do to show support for a corps (the Vanguard yell comes to mind) is perfectly fine with me.

[MikeD]

Exactly. My jaw literally dropped when I read "use binoculars" or "if you can't hear it in the stand maybe they shouldn't do it." I'm all for debating philosophies of judge on the field vs. in the stands, but you're right about the armchair judges

Actually, Glory said "...if you can't hear it in the stands, maybe it shouldn't matter."

That has been an idea I have heard many times over the years. Agree or not with the concept, it is not something Glory just pulled out of the air at the moment he wrote his post. It has been an idea kicked around for a long time.

[MikeD]

I've been going to shows for around 25 years and it was always expected that we have common courtesy to other people around us and not talk and/or enter/exit during performances, which I have seen staff do frequently, so we have different experiences.

I think we need to differentiate between a staff having a true reaction versus just plain over the top rude behavior. You are 100% right about the need to demonstrate common courtesy...and that applies to anyone sitting in the stands, staff and audience.

[glory]

Either some of y'all are being disingenuous in this discussion or you never sat between the 40s (or at least on the side from which the corps enter).

Because from there you can't miss the staff behaviour we're talking about. Not the regular cheering. We're talking about the group that cheers out of sync with everyone else. They're on their feet the exact moment of the big hit - you know, the point where the rest of us are just feeling the impact, that small but discernable moment when we're deciding whether we like or love it. They're always there first. They're shouting at the top of their lungs for one individual among 150 who accomplished one thing which the others may or may not have accomplished also. They anticipate the trouble spots by screaming words of encouragement which may or may not be heard by those on the field but can't be missed by those nearby who can't possibly miss the confusing signals. Those are just three examples among many that I've heard.

Some say ask them politely to stop. Excuse me. Would you mind not cheering at the wrong times? From several seats away? During the show? You're not being realistic about the disruption implicit in that confrontation. Besides, I've seen folks ask politely. The staff response wasn't polite.

I understand that the staff is invested in this. I understand that it's difficult to suspend emotion and committment even for 12 minutes. To that I say: So what? Drum corps is difficult. Drum corps requires sacrifice. Drum corps demands discipline.

More important, some staffs aren't disruptive. They behave admirably in the stands. If they can, so can the rest.

HH

[Jeff Ream]

then they should do it quietly. They are encroaching on paying customers. They should be thankful for the opportunity to be able to watch from that vantage point and not be disruptive.

Are they all disruptive? No. But it is definitely not rare.

so then should the judges penalize the idiot homer who "woo woo woo's" every little move all night long? or the parent so happy to see little Jimmy or Jenny do their thing? or the busload of band kids going nuts?

because IMO, they have all been FAR more distracting and disruptive at shows than staffs

[glory]

And yes, if we can impose timing and boundary penalties, we can ask an official to impose a penalty when corps staff are disruptive in the stands. Don't worry, these will be as rare as timing penalties once the staff understands what's at stake.

HH