For Dinosaurs Only

[actucker]

Right now, competition is so stagnated that just about anything that rocks the boat would be a positive. Granted, audience voting wouldn't be my first choice....but I think we need some small portion of the 100 points given out by people outside of the long-time DCI judging pool. They can be entertainment industry professionals, performers, musicians, music teachers, or even trained judges from other marching music circuits....anyone that brings a fresh perspective, and won't be guided by last night's recaps.

What you're insinuating is that the same corps continue to win simply because the judges are involved with the activity. Competition is stagnated, so its automatically a problem with the judging community. Makes sense to me. The Yankees being in the playoffs every year must be the fault of the umpires. Tom Brady throwing metric tons of touchdowns ever year is because of the referees. The Miami Heat won a championship last year because the officials decided to give it to them.

Sure. It has nothing to do with those individuals or teams being good at what they do.

I'm sorry, but the Blue Devils, the Cadets, Phantom Regiment, Crown etc continue to be at the top of the leaderboard because they are good. It has nothing to do with the judging community.

[audiodb]

What you're insinuating is that the same corps continue to win simply because the judges are involved with the activity.

Really? Oh, tell me more about what I think. Let's see just how much farther off-target you can get....

Competition is stagnated, so its automatically a problem with the judging community. Makes sense to me. The Yankees being in the playoffs every year must be the fault of the umpires. Tom Brady throwing metric tons of touchdowns ever year is because of the referees. The Miami Heat won a championship last year because the officials decided to give it to them.

Sure. It has nothing to do with those individuals or teams being good at what they do.

I'm sorry, but the Blue Devils, the Cadets, Phantom Regiment, Crown etc continue to be at the top of the leaderboard because they are good. It has nothing to do with the judging community.

OK, that was fun. Feel better? Now, back to reality....

Yes, competition has stagnated. No, I didn't say judging was solely responsible for that. Of course the corps on top are there because they're good. Looking closer, though, we see that these top corps are in nearly the exact same order every single day. If it weren't for the duel between Phantom Regiment and Cadets for 3rd, the top six would have been set in stone all year long.

I don't know about you, but I went to a lot of shows this season....saw a lot of performances up close. Most world-class corps perform at a very high level, and consistently so. A great deal of the consistency we see in contest results are simply an accurate reflection of that fact. That said, at times there are some day-to-day variations in performance clear enough to cause multi-spot fluctuations in caption placements and actual changes in overall placement between these closely-matched competitors. Sometimes, I saw the judge in a particular caption respond exactly as I did. Sometimes, I instead saw that column on the recap parrot the most recent night's results. Too little of the former and too much of the latter, and the overall placements never change....like with 2012's 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th place corps.

I've also noticed something refreshing, and encouraging. On opening weekend, when DCI has run shows on both days and kept the results under wraps until Monday, we get astonishingly different results from those two shows. A corps can win one day and finish 4th the other day. This can't happen anywhere else in the DCI season, when recent scores/recaps are available to all. Wouldn't it be great if judges could give us their instinctive opinions all season long, instead of just until recent recaps are available?

Unfortunately, the system drives judges into this behavior. DCI's corps have asked for consistency from the judging community year after year for decades now. They don't want surprises (not nasty ones, anyway). They even want their scores to rise steadily all season, in parallel with the rising quality of their performances. Never mind that scores are just numbers judges use to get the corps ranked and rated properly in relation to each other. No, judges are not solely to blame for anything....they are doing the job their employer, DCI (i.e. the corps), asks them to do. If I were a judge, I'd do the same.

So I'd like to see the judging pot stirred in some way....but I'm open to suggestions. Got any?

[actucker]

Really? Oh, tell me more about what I think. Let's see just how much farther off-target you can get....

OK, that was fun. Feel better? Now, back to reality....

Yes, competition has stagnated. No, I didn't say judging was solely responsible for that. Of course the corps on top are there because they're good. Looking closer, though, we see that these top corps are in nearly the exact same order every single day. If it weren't for the duel between Phantom Regiment and Cadets for 3rd, the top six would have been set in stone all year long.

I don't know about you, but I went to a lot of shows this season....saw a lot of performances up close. Most world-class corps perform at a very high level, and consistently so. A great deal of the consistency we see in contest results are simply an accurate reflection of that fact. That said, at times there are some day-to-day variations in performance clear enough to cause multi-spot fluctuations in caption placements and actual changes in overall placement between these closely-matched competitors. Sometimes, I saw the judge in a particular caption respond exactly as I did. Sometimes, I instead saw that column on the recap parrot the most recent night's results. Too little of the former and too much of the latter, and the overall placements never change....like with 2012's 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th place corps.

I've also noticed something refreshing, and encouraging. On opening weekend, when DCI has run shows on both days and kept the results under wraps until Monday, we get astonishingly different results from those two shows. A corps can win one day and finish 4th the other day. This can't happen anywhere else in the DCI season, when recent scores/recaps are available to all. Wouldn't it be great if judges could give us their instinctive opinions all season long, instead of just until recent recaps are available?

Unfortunately, the system drives judges into this behavior. DCI's corps have asked for consistency from the judging community year after year for decades now. They don't want surprises (not nasty ones, anyway). They even want their scores to rise steadily all season, in parallel with the rising quality of their performances. Never mind that scores are just numbers judges use to get the corps ranked and rated properly in relation to each other. No, judges are not solely to blame for anything....they are doing the job their employer, DCI (i.e. the corps), asks them to do. If I were a judge, I'd do the same.

So I'd like to see the judging pot stirred in some way....but I'm open to suggestions. Got any?

Go ahead and get snarky. Won't hurt my feelings.

I didn't say anything about what you think. I told you what you were insinuating, which was exactly what I posted.

That being said, I'm glad to know that you are capable enough to judge every single sub caption from your seat in the stands from night to night, and can determine that entire corps placements should flip back and forth on a given night. Good to know you think so highly of yourself. The fact is, caption placements were all over the place all year. Percussion comes to mind for example. As late as early August it was hard to tell who would win the Sanford trophy. Did corps placements change much? No, but to think that that is due to individual judges being driven to "slot" corps based on the previous night's recaps, then you need to pay more attention. If that were the case, then those corps would end up with the same placement in those individual captions. Its not hard to do the math. Clearly those judges were voting their instincts. Several times I found myself wondering how corps X won caption B and so on. Since individual judges only control their own caption, the variations are pretty easy to spot. The fact that they weren't wide enough to change overall placements is hardly indicative of anything.

As for your contention that things got changed up when the judges couldn't see the recap from the night before, the two shows in which those scores weren't announced were Akron and Louisville. In Akron, the corps finished in the following order:

Cadets

Phantom Regiment

Crown

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

The next show, in Louisville, the results were:

Crown

Cadets

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

Not exactly major changes from night to night. Interestingly enough, the order of those 6 corps was pretty consistent throughout the rest of the season. Nobody went from first to fourth, nor did the placements change drastically after those two shows.

Again, competition is stagnant in some opinions because some corps have stronger design teams in place, or draw stronger talent, or spend are more financially entrenched. It has very little to do with any judge bias or the fact that they saw a recap the night before. I'm sorry that you're bored by the same corps winning all year. Until some other corps gets it together in the way that Crown has in the past few years, its going to stay that way. Introducing outside judging won't really change that, as the outside judges will still have to be trained on the sheets. Introducing fan voting will certainly change things up, but not even remotely for the better in my opinion.

Nope. The only ways in which placement change will happen is for one or more corps to get better than the ones in front of them, or for the sheets to change completely, thus changing the criteria under which the corps are judged. Even then, it is likely that the corps who understand and program to the sheets now will do the same if the sheets change.

[MikeD]

OK. His claim is that most corps had "nothing to do with DCI". In reality, as early as the mid-1970s, the majority of corps participated in at least one DCI-sanctioned contest each year, and thus had something to do with DCI. In fact, so many local corps were participating in DCI events that they lobbied their local circuits to adopt DCI rules.

First off, performing at one DCI show hardly counts as being "involved" in DCI.

However, because I know that some of the corps did a DCI show, I accounted for that, and you misquoted what I said....

Except you ignore that almost all of those corps that folded over time had very little, if anything, to do with DCI.

Please list the 'majority' that participated in DCI events. Personally, I don't think it was anywhere near that large a percentage.

As for wanting DCI rules, it wasn't because the local corps were participating in DCI, it was because even at that early stage DCI was seen as the top of the activity, so it was natural to want to adopt the rules used by the best. That's how it was in the GSC in the mid 70's, anyway. I was at the circuit meetings as an instructor and judge.

[GUARDLING]

Nope. The only ways in which placement change will happen is for one or more corps to get better than the ones in front of them, or for the sheets to change completely, thus changing the criteria under which the corps are judged. Even then, it is likely that the corps who understand and program to the sheets now will do the same if the sheets change.

thats the thing and I agree with you...people get all excited when sheets get changed, policy changes,etc etc BUT what makes them think the corps or corps at the top arent going to adapt to that and be just as successful, which could or could NOT change outcomes...GOOD IS GOOD, talent is talent, understanding HOW to compete is classic

Edited September 6, 2012 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

First off, performing at one DCI show hardly counts as being "involved" in DCI.

However, because I know that some of the corps did a DCI show, I accounted for that, and you misquoted what I said....

Please list the 'majority' that participated in DCI events. Personally, I don't think it was anywhere near that large a percentage.

As for wanting DCI rules, it wasn't because the local corps were participating in DCI, it was because even at that early stage DCI was seen as the top of the activity, so it was natural to want to adopt the rules used by the best. That's how it was in the GSC in the mid 70's, anyway. I was at the circuit meetings as an instructor and judge.

i also remember it being this way BITD , many NON dci corps at the beginning didnt do the DCI thing but may have tested the waters with maybe 1 show. But unless I remember wrong most stayed kind of seperate

Edited September 6, 2012 by GUARDLING

[Jeff Ream]

the sheet or triad can be seperate in itself you can have more of one of the 3 than another...it also can as you say be equal all around....like in any judging situation...who had more of what.should be winning.as far as wheather you see it reflected in the shows....that becomes opinion as well as subjective and very much not understood by many judges at times let alone the average spectator, now thats not to say that there arent many spectators very educated in the activity, even by todays standard BUT that doesnt mean people get how it all fits together...thats a debate by judges let alone the public

if you rely heavily or even solely on one third, that's not truly effective.

yet it gets rewarded.

[Jeff Ream]

I agree in principle. That's a really good way to put it (intellectual, emotional and aesthetic). I disagree with your assessment of the shows however. BD, Crown, Cadets, Phantom, Bluecoats etc all had their share of all three. The problem is, there is a pretty narrow view of what aesthetic or emotional effect should be. If a show doesn't give someone goosebumps, its not considered emotionally effective. Some of the afore mentioned shows did just that. Some others appealed to other emotions, such as anger, confusion, wonder, surprise, etc. As for Aesthetic, you had christmas gifts, hula hoops, hobby horses, 7 sets of timpani, snowflakes, masks, beheadings, and flat out crazy running all over the field. What exactly about that lacks aesthetic effect?

well, let's break down BD. the whole dada thing wasn't exactly emotionally engaging unless you're into dadaism. nothing was familiar about it to the average fan. When I see a hobby horse, I think of a small kids toy, not a movement of elitist artists.

[audiodb]

That being said, I'm glad to know that you are capable enough to judge every single sub caption from your seat in the stands from night to night, and can determine that entire corps placements should flip back and forth on a given night. Good to know you think so highly of yourself.

Well, I see you think highly enough of yourself to have an opinion on it too.

As for your contention that things got changed up when the judges couldn't see the recap from the night before, the two shows in which those scores weren't announced were Akron and Louisville. In Akron, the corps finished in the following order:

Cadets

Phantom Regiment

Crown

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

The next show, in Louisville, the results were:

Crown

Cadets

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

Not exactly major changes from night to night.

Crown going from third to first was a significant change. How many shows later in the season saw a move like that?

Interestingly enough, the order of those 6 corps was pretty consistent throughout the rest of the season. Nobody went from first to fourth, nor did the placements change drastically after those two shows.

Remember, DCI also withheld scores on opening weekend in 2011, and there was a corps moving from first to fourth in those two shows.

[KeithHall]

Try this.....Take away all forms of communication from all judges for the entire season. No laptop, no cell phone, no homephone. Keep them sequestered. Take them to their contest, hand them their materials and let them judge by what they see and hear on that night. No reference from past contests to look at and let them work the boxes they way they were intended. Give a corps a score BASED on the reference criteria and have their worksheets taken from them after each corps so they can't remember what they gave a corps. Do this all season long. Would we see shifts and maybe better competitions throughout the year?

I know this could never happen but wouldn't this be more of a fair way to judge a contest? Now for all you more intelligent than I people...slam away!