Have drum corps evolved into bands?

[Donny Drum Corps]

I am not buying that ANYTHING is dumbed down at all...the brass books of the top DCI corps are insane with difficulty as are the percussion licks. Don, the 26 rudiments you refer to are the basis for all of the new hybrid rudiments or patterns which would be IMPOSSIBLE for most back in the day that you competed.

The kids are just better conditioned, more talented as a group, and better musicians now in the top groups. You don't have to believe me, but I believe I have seen it first hand. They also have more money that the kids we took in and nurtured into better people through drum corps. We took anyone, and even favored the poorer kids. We took juvenile delinquents and made them productive in society. It is NOT the same game, so we should stop trying to compare it.

We had tremendously talented individual performers in our teams BITD...they now have to audition for a spot. So whereas we taught kids that couldn't play anything when they walked in by rote without music, and perhaps they became great musicians, now you cannot get in the door without significant training.

I don't like all the shows or programming choices, but I do not underestimate what these kids are doing. We dinosaurs should stop player hating on the kids. Most good corps directors MAKE SURE that these kids understand what we did before they were born. These kids get a history lesson, especially in corps like Cavaliers, Boston, Garfield, Scouts, SCV and on.

I will stop making sense now///spry.

DA

[Jeff Ream]

Truer words haven't been spoken on this topic in ages. The real shame is that for all the old folks that love this style of design and wish corps would revert back, they sure don't attend the Alumni Spectacular in droves, do they?

And I know many people that buy the three show seat package for DCA weekend that don't go to the alumni show. I went faithfully every year until last year when scheduling just didn't work.

I also know many years I saw people in part of their uniform coming up and sitting in those seats when they saw they were open to watch the rest of the show...and theyweren'tthe people that sat there the day before

[camel lips]

Truer words haven't been spoken on this topic in ages. The real shame is that for all the old folks that love this style of design and wish corps would revert back, they sure don't attend the Alumni Spectacular in droves, do they?

Here is part of the problem. First of all the time slot. 10 am? A lot of people are still recovering from the late hour of Sat night prelims. Then there is the issue of MANY of the "fans" are reherasing with their respective Open class corps and Class A corps that hour of the morning. Also have to include with that the fans of the alumni that are on staff of the Open and class a corps as well as support personell and family members that may have to be with the respective corps for one reason or the other.

Then there is a good chunk of the fans that are actually IN THE ALUMNI SHOW!!

For whatever reason there was only one year I was able to watch the Alumni show. And belive me I would have wanted to be there for every one of the shows.

Edited June 28, 2013 by camel lips

[Jeff Ream]

I would love to better understand the point I bolded: in what ways has drum corps music become less sophisticated in response to visual requirements? Could someone point to two shows, earlier and later, and highlight a couple points about each that show this dumbing down?

drum books on the field don't always have a lot of the same types of rudiments or hybrids being played now as then because some of that stuf you just can't do at todays tempos. brass books often seem thinner because a lot of the harmonic stuff as well as notier sections have been moved to the pit voice.

[Jeff Ream]

john come on. al lot of these people are old and sick. they can't travel. they can't climb the steps of a stadium. they can't sit in the heat. they take meds. you need to think before you speak. you are really starting to irritate me. i'm one of those people john. i can't even go up to tampa to watch a show. maybe your to young to undarstand i don't know but maybe you should allow people to PM you so they can explain their side. but you have it disabled. so i think you need to be careful what you say and try thinking just a little bit.

Well Don no offense, but if they're sick and can't handle the conditions outside, they shouldn't be #####ing about what's being performed as it shouldn't matter anyways...they can't go due to health issues

[Jeff Ream]

Here is part of the problem. First of all the time slot. 10 am? A lot of people are still recovering from the late hour of Sat night prelims. Then there is the issue of MANY of the "fans" are reherasing with their respective Open class corps and Class A corps that hour of the morning. Also have to include with that the fans of the alumni that are on staff of the Open and class a corps as well as support personell and family members that may have to be with the respective corps for one reason or the other.

Then there is a good chunk of the fans that are actually IN THE ALUMNI SHOW!!

For whatever reason there was only one year I was able to watch the Alumni show. And belive me I would have wanted to be there for every one of the shows.

given the size of the prelims crowd, the only late hour affecting anyone is the one that involves last call

[donincardona]

Well Don no offense, but if they're sick and can't handle the conditions outside, they shouldn't be #####ing about what's being performed as it shouldn't matter anyways...they can't go due to health issues

touche'

[donincardona]

I am not buying that ANYTHING is dumbed down at all...the brass books of the top DCI corps are insane with difficulty as are the percussion licks. Don, the 26 rudiments you refer to are the basis for all of the new hybrid rudiments or patterns which would be IMPOSSIBLE for most back in the day that you competed.

The kids are just better conditioned, more talented as a group, and better musicians now in the top groups. You don't have to believe me, but I believe I have seen it first hand. They also have more money that the kids we took in and nurtured into better people through drum corps. We took anyone, and even favored the poorer kids. We took juvenile delinquents and made them productive in society. It is NOT the same game, so we should stop trying to compare it.

We had tremendously talented individual performers in our teams BITD...they now have to audition for a spot. So whereas we taught kids that couldn't play anything when they walked in by rote without music, and perhaps they became great musicians, now you cannot get in the door without significant training.

I don't like all the shows or programming choices, but I do not underestimate what these kids are doing. We dinosaurs should stop player hating on the kids. Most good corps directors MAKE SURE that these kids understand what we did before they were born. These kids get a history lesson, especially in corps like Cavaliers, Boston, Garfield, Scouts, SCV and on.

I will stop making sense now///spry.

DA

donny as i said before. this is all past my time. i'm good with whatever is going on now. i'm not living in the past. i know that if i were a kid today i would never have made the cut. i get it. believe me. i don't hate anybody and don't hate on anybody. i know things are different and i know that you know we changed things BITD and the old timers didn't like it. it was our turn now it's their turn so it goes. i'm gonna say it again..........I'M GOOD WITH IT.

[N.E. Brigand]

Then, the visual side became the driving force of the activity. In bands and drum corps. That's the biggest change: as visual got more involved, more detailed, and filled with extras such as props and dance, it kept evolving, to where, IMO, in many ways it dumbed down the music in terms of demand, but ramped it up in terms of what types of music became offered.

I would love to better understand the point I bolded: in what ways has drum corps music become less sophisticated in response to visual requirements? Could someone point to two shows, earlier and later, and highlight a couple points about each that show this dumbing down?

I'm gonna say this, because this I know: the percussion part of the shows have been dumbed down. They have to be. You cannot play rudiments with the fast cadence they use today. Rolls and crushed rolls are used a lot. But there are 26 rudiments, and it is impossible to play them that fast.

I am not buying that ANYTHING is dumbed down at all: the brass books of the top DCI corps are insane with difficulty, as are the percussion licks. Don, the 26 rudiments you refer to are the basis for all of the new hybrid rudiments or patterns which would be IMPOSSIBLE for most back in the day that you competed.

Drum books on the field don't always have a lot of the same types of rudiments or hybrids being played now as then, because some of that stuff you just can't do at today's tempos. Brass books often seem thinner, because a lot of the harmonic stuff, as well as note-ier sections have been moved to the pit voice.

Thanks, Don, Donny, and Jeff. I see there is some disagreement here, or perhaps a different emphasis on what constitutes difficulty. Donny: do you disagree with Don and Jeff that certain kinds of drumming fundamentals are impossible to play at high speeds? Don, Jeff: would you perhaps concede that playing at such high tempos (not to mention while moving around so much more) is itself a new kind of difficulty that earlier corps couldn't match?* Does anyone disagree with Jeff that the brass parts are in some ways easier now because transferring some music to the pit means there are fewer parts for brass to cover?

*Edit: We once produced a play called Two Pianos, Four Hands, a two-hander written by and for two actors who were also fairly good pianists. It related the experience of two boys who study to become classical pianists, but in the end are not good enough. In one key scene, one of the students, now about college age, seems to the audience to be managing a difficult high-tempo part fairly well, until his instructor asks him to play it much more slowly, and it becomes clear that he's glossing over certain fundamentals. Is that what Don and Jeff have in mind as regards drum rudiments?

Edited June 28, 2013 by N.E. Brigand

[Donny Drum Corps]

No...I have already said that I don't agree that anything is dumbed down...Jeff has only one point that I would consider...the ratamacues and swiss rudiments that were prevalent in the 60's would not be able to be played at these tempos perhaps, bit that doesn't make these hybrids easier to play. He has more knowledge in this department than I do, but I still would not consider the stuff they are playing now EASIER by any stretch, They fit way more notes into a bar or phrase now than I ever remember.

As far as the brass scoring goes...better listen to what Crown, Cadets, Devils, Regiment et al...and tell me that it is easier than the stuff we played BITD...NO WAY...I totally disagree with my friend Jeff on this one.

Now consider that these kids are traveling across yard lines with extended step sizes, insane tempos and the possibility of physical disaster while playing. No contest here.

DA