Can someone explain the G Bugles?

[Soprano Martin]

Does anyone know if there are All Age or DCA groups that use bugles still? Perhaps we can still get a taste of the sweet nectar somewhere in the states.

Empire Statesmen, San Fransico Renegades, Kilties, Cincinnati Tradition, High Country Brass, are DCA corps on G horns just to name a few. Most Alumni corps play G horns as well.

[JimF-LowBari]

Empire Statesmen, San Fransico Renegades, Kilties, Cincinnati Tradition, High Country Brass, are DCA corps on G horns just to name a few. Most Alumni corps play G horns as well.

Thanks couldn't remember who played what in DCA. Renegades have a different sound and think they use G Kanstuls but style of play and their book could explain a lot of any sound difference.

As for Alumnis... lot of different styles of playing from what I call "loud is good, louder is better" to more concert band sound (not naming names). And Westshoremen Alumni use both G and Bb as members usually bring what they have. Nightmare for staff as they have to have a full set of charts for both keys.

Edited August 14, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[cixelsyd]

My understanding of a bugle is that there they are a valveless (occasionally 1 valve or even rarer 2 valves) brass instruments that have a limited note set due to one note per partial. Listening to old recordings it doesn't sound like corps played music limited by bugles so obviously they used more notes than just one per partial.

Correct.

If your recordings are old enough (1950s), you can hear the single-valve bugles that limited the selection of notes to the point where some chords in certain music had to be altered. But buglers began pulling slides to fill in the missing chromatics, and shortly thereafter, a rotary valve was added to perform that function. Intonation was greatly improved by the G-F bugle design, first used in 1968.

Also, I've generally seen people say that they think the bugles were better for corps and fewer others who say that the switch has been better for the sound of the hornline. Any info you could give me to understand more of corps history with bugles? Thanks.

You will hear a whole thread full of dissenting opinions on this. Good luck sifting through the myths.

The "any-key brass" rule change of 1999 was a Trojan horse for transitioning DCI away from G to Bb/F brass. At that time, only two entities still made G "bugles", while several others had ceased the practice and still others had refused to ever make G horns. The transition to Bb/F enabled DCI corps to do business with these other manufacturers, which stimulated competition in the market and eventually lead to an improvement in equipment quality.

Aside from that, several factors prevent us from "proving" who improved what when, and how.

- For one thing, the "bugles" of 1999 were, according to some sources, really just band instruments with different length piping to change the key. Earlier bugles had different bore size and shape compared to their band instrument counterparts.

- Changes in the approach to brass technique swept through DCI at about the same time as the key change. It is difficult to demonstrate whether changing sounds were due to changing equipment, or changing approach to playing.

- Historically, something about the bugle gave it a relative advantage in projection outdoors compared to band brass instruments. As more and more of the biggest DCI events moved to indoor venues, that became less relevant.

From the above, you can make a strong case for either G or Bb/F being "better".

[alumniof]

Let me give it to you straight so you can get it (my goal anyway). First thing about G. It sound different for two reasons. It's pitched a minor third lower than Bb and the bore is bigger - which means it's not brighter, it's darker and it travels further. If it sounds brighter - blame the player. The sound is darker. Now....it sounds brighter because the sound travels further. A bugle is meant to send a sound from where you are to over where "they" are. That's the purpose a bugle was ever made - projection. It travels. Therefore, the audience member in the stands not only hears it - but hears it and "feels" it - especially from 60 horns (standard number when corps size was 128 - unless you were Phantom). Because it projects further - you hear "everything". You hear all the crap - bad embochures, intonation (yes there is some - "some" inherent intonation issues with the bugle - but - just listen to the recordings - are they really so offensive - no). The bugle is an HONEST instrument. You want to know a good hornline, you'll hear it. The biggest thing is the G key AND the BUGLE are the SIGNATURE SOUND of DCI. "THIS" no longer exists. It's gone. There is a tombstone on it. If you never experienced it (and I'm a fan of the two valve - and the Marine Corps is not the best example - listen to 82 and 84 recordings for the best recordings to get an idea of what they TRULY sounded like and turn up the volume to simulate how loud it would be standing in front of them and just close your eyes. That SIGNATURE sound is an identity. Now, and I'm not just some 30 year old looking 47 year old fat slob with marinara on my shirt talking about the good ole days because of my bitter present - DCI sounds like marching band. Same key. Same sound without woodwinds. Is it more in tune. Yeah. Does it sound better. It sounds like the talent is better and it's more "pleasant"....so, if you want a pretty little hornline and intonation is the end all be all - than listen to easy listening on your radio dial because that's what you're getting. It's smoother, sounds more pleasant. It's not a rock concert which is really what DCI used to be - the rock stars of marching band. Again, in my opinion, the horns weren't bright, grossly out of tune - it was just honest and the lower key (lower sounds also travel further and more omnidirectional) the sound HIT you and you could physically FEEL the sound from way up in the stands (and if you were closer it's the equivalent of standing next to a speaker at a rock concert). The closest you could get now for your easy listening experience and pretend is to just stand in front of the arc (if the pit would get out of the way) during a run through. But, I've done this and to me....it's not even close. Lastly, who wants to hear the same Bb horn 365 a year? I hear it in marching band, concert band, jazz band.....oh, and now in Drum Corps (it's not a Drum and Bugle Corps anymore). To me, to give up your identity sound because of a minor intonation improvement, and all the other #### poor arguments of ('oh, we can sell our horns, oh, HS kids get to play what they play in school, oh, band directors will like us more) is like giving away everything you have to go on 1 date with (pick your babe). And I think this is what frustrates the old farts - it's not DCI, it's BOA without woodwinds. But, it's the closest thing we can get because, it just is, and it has that same DCI logo we used to see. I think the day woodwinds come in....just call it a day. My source of marching entertainment now is college marching band. They're big, loud, entertain the audience and I really don't care if it's difficult or they are the all-stars or not. I feel the sound, they blow me back and they're having fun - unless of course they have a band director who doesn't give a crap because he's a DCI wanna be and starts trying to copy shows. Want to see a good college marching band entertain the be-jesus out of you - youtube Western Carolina and Baylor University. For all you quote-a-holics - this is my opinion. No offense to anyone. I hope Bb is offended though. You're like the instrument that got it's lunch money stolen everyday and shoved in lockers by a bugle.

[MikeD]

Let me give it to you straight so you can get it (my goal anyway). First thing about G. It sound different for two reasons. It's pitched a minor third lower than Bb and the bore is bigger - which means it's not brighter, it's darker and it travels further.

Bore sizes of modern marching Bb/F horns are just as large as G horns. Since the change to Bb/F, the manufacturers have created Bb/F marching horns that equal their old G counterparts in that area.

Look at the Kanstul website, for instance. Both their Bb marching trumpet and their two G soprano bugles have a bore size of .470.

What you said used to be true when the key change was first made, and some corps used off-the-shelf horns with smaller bores, but progress in marching horn design has eliminated that particular item of difference.

[fsubone]

If you listen to recordings of the early 2000s, there was overlap of the Top corps, where some were on Bb, and some were on G. 2000 and 2001 are good examples on when you can really hear the difference.

I'm going to guess that G bugles advanced during their tenure in DCI, because you really can hear a lot of bad brass playing back in the 70s and 80s on the horns, even at the top. The sounds got much better in the 90s, so I'm wondering if it was the instruments changing, or the way people were taught that changed?

[MikeD]

If you listen to recordings of the early 2000s, there was overlap of the Top corps, where some were on Bb, and some were on G. 2000 and 2001 are good examples on when you can really hear the difference.

I'm going to guess that G bugles advanced during their tenure in DCI, because you really can hear a lot of bad brass playing back in the 70s and 80s on the horns, even at the top. The sounds got much better in the 90s, so I'm wondering if it was the instruments changing, or the way people were taught that changed?

The problem with comparing the early days to today is that in 2000 and 2001 the Bb/F horns being used were nowhere close to the ones being used today. In 2000, for instance, I know the Cadets used off-the-shelf Yamaha trumpets with smaller bore sizes, among other things. Today the marching horns in Bb/F are far superior to those horns.

IMO it is how the staffs mold their desired ensemble sounds far more than the physical horns that make the biggest difference today versus, say, 1999.

[Fred Windish]

alumniof -

Your post includes this statement . . .

"My source of marching entertainment now is college marching band. They're big, loud, entertain the audience and I really don't care if it's difficult or they are the all-stars or not. I feel the sound, they blow me back and they're having fun."

THANK YOU!

Standing in front of Alabama's Million Dollar Band as they do a pep rally on the library steps brings tears of joy to my eyes. Of course, it could be those majorettes, they are stunning in every way!

I have a few of the band's CDs. Crank those up and it's big time 70s drum corps all over again.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Fred Windish

[alumniof]

Bore sizes of modern marching Bb/F horns are just as large as G horns. Since the change to Bb/F, the manufacturers have created Bb/F marching horns that equal their old G counterparts in that area.

Look at the Kanstul website, for instance. Both their Bb marching trumpet and their two G soprano bugles have a bore size of .470.

What you said used to be true when the key change was first made, and some corps used off-the-shelf horns with smaller bores, but progress in marching horn design has eliminated that particular item of difference.

2 valves. Bigger bore. Things may have changed when they went to 3 valve?

[SACMellos2010]

I played G bugles in the 90's, to me there is a big difference in the tone. G bugles are brighter and have a bit more rude sound, but in a good way (to my ears). They are voiced like in a choir (soprano, baritone, contra bass) and are named as such. There is an electricity to the sound that I just don't hear in Bb, in the outdoor drum corps context. As for intonation issues, maybe they were a bit pitchier, but I suggest anyone go back and listen to some of the amazing lines (Star of Indiana, Blue Devils, Scouts, etc) on G instruments- especially pinned wide open, the sound is totally different (louder, brighter, MUCH more exciting). The G horns were cool, made drum and BUGLE corps something very unique, and had an exotic appeal. In the context of drum corps, a G bugle compared to a Bb band instrument is like comparing a Formula 1 racecar (G) to a Toyota Prius (Bb). The very nature of the unique instrumentation and sound is what made drum corps so compelling to me, I still love drum corps but it is really just a marching band without woodwinds now. Not sure why they still call themselves bugle corps, they don't play bugles. Sadly that "sound" is probably gone forever... wish it wasn't.

this x1000 2 valves and G made it unique