tesmusic Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I still cant believe that my favorite Drum Corps was in favor of allowing band instruments. Madison alumni aren't happy about this. Please don't speak for me on this matter. I have no problem with it, and I am an alum. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 One funny thing about this conversation is that I own a CD that consists entirely of eight or nine different arrangements of the “Adagio for Strings”. And I knew that SCV’s version was in fact an adaption to drum corps of Barber’s choral “Agnus Dei” derived from the “Adagio” (whose best-known string orchestra version is itself an adaption from what he first wrote for string quartet). So I know quite well that the piece, like a great many other compositions, can be translated very effectively to other idioms than that for which they were originally created. This is in fact the essence of drum corps. Notice what Barber did not do: he didn’t arrange it for voices and then try to pass it off as a work for string orchestra. (Maybe the problem is that you didn't realize I was being sarcastic when I said that the "Adagio" doesn't sound correct without strings?) Furthermore, I simply disagree with you that the trombone alone possesses a sound for which it would be, to cite Joe Allison’s ridiculous term once more, “sacrilege” to replace with something else on the field; that the sound of the trombone, even counting the glissando (or portamento), is more unlike a euphonium’s than the sound of a violin is unlike a trumpet’s. Again, not that it matters if one ensemble has nothing that sounds like another, when it comes time to adapt. Few people would mistake the human voice for a viola, but that didn’t stop Barber from making the arrangement in question. (As it happens, I admit I wasn’t very familiar with the “Concerto to End All Concertos” before yesterday, but after listening to it three times on Youtube, I have yet to hear the part that must be performed on trombone. There’s a lot of descending trombone lines, and I guess they slip into each note rather than hitting it square on, but nothing I can hear that slides from one note to another so dramatically that a euphonium would sound especially wrong—if I were even to agree that it was wrong for the euphonium to sound different. What am I missing? Can someone point me to the key moments in that recording?) To step back a little, it seems to me that the basic point of disagreement between the two camps in this discussion is as follows: One position holds that drum and bugle corps are a specific kind of marching musical ensemble, like a piano trio, or a barbershop quartet, or a brass quintet are specific kinds of non-marching music ensembles, and drum corps therefore should be limited to a certain instrumentation. No one on these forums would claim a string quartet with a euphonium instead of a cello was still a string quartet. The other position holds that drum and bugle corps are any kind of marching musical ensemble, including the above mentioned combos as well as any other imaginable, and therefore all instrumentation should be permitted. No one on these forums would claim that a violin / violin / viola / euphonium quartet wasn’t a musical group. The first position has been best exemplified by 2muchcoffeeman’s post, which everyone should read, and to which nobody posted anything in disagreement. But I think you actually do disagree. Is that right? Ok, I think the discussion is becoming clearer to me: * no, I didn't know you were being sarcastic, so thanks for the clarification. It's not uncommon to misconstrue intent reading stuff, and I missed that originally * I agree that arranging and re-voicing instrumentation for drum corps is obviously the norm. Even when corps arrangers do brass band charts they rearrange thing for pacing reasons, and use different instrumentation for effect or just flat-out practicality. It's what we do/love, and I'd be lying if I said there weren't pieces of music that I enjoy the drum corps arrangements more than the original compositions (FWIW I heard "Phantom of the Opera" via SCV before I heard the original or saw the musical, and I still prefer SCV 88 & 89 over the stage production and DEFINITELY over the film version). * I guess I fall somewhere in between your either/or positions above: my personal preference of instrumentation is generally 2013 drum corps instrumentation. That being said, I'm open to see what arrangers do with t-bones, concert F-horns, etc. Like all aspects of drum corps design, some implementations will rock my world, and some will feel lame. As far as what you posted regarding the "All animals are equal" post, I generally agree in part, and disagree in some aspects. The poster you referenced describes art, but seemingly implies that artist adapt other genres while staying within the confinements of a specific idiom. That is indeed SOME art, but not all. Sometimes art is pushing boundaries; art is literally redefining boundaries. He mentioned the hip-hop idiom, but there have been hip-hop acts that played with live bands and not just a DJ sampling other genres. He mentioned photographers & composition but the digital tech has radically changed how a photographer composes and manipulates their shots. Art is constantly influx, while drum and bugle corps (and marching band, WGI, etc) is an idiom that does have to rely on other art forms to exist, as the bulk of DCI shows revolve around arrangements of other's work, that doesn't mean things HAVE to be confined to specific instrumentation. Again, I prefer no woodwinds, no strings, no guitars or pianos. But what I like is not only irrelevant (since I don't teach/design/direct DCI corps), but it's also naive: what if my holding onto a traditional preference shuts the door on some amazing show design? DCI directors and designers have delivered far more awesome "moments" than I could've ever imagined, and will continue to do so. While not every corps produces an "all-time" type of show every season, every year has something that truly amazes me. For me, designers have built up so much "good will," so to speak, with the amazing things they've delivered over the decades I've been a fan/member/instructor/whatever that for now at least I'm willing to give them a shot. Does a trombone glissando really mean the difference between the piece "working" for drum corps or not? Probably not: as mentioned DCI corps have done PLENTY of music originally written with other instrumentation in mind. Would the piece be COOLER with a trombone glissando; or would other phrases in other shows be cooler with concert F-horns, or trombones, or other brass? I don't know, but I'm willing to at least give it a shot and I think the designers are well within their rights to push for their inclusion. I know we've been going back-and-forth a bit, N.E. but I'm probably closer to your mentality on this regard than apart. To be blunt, as a percussionist I feel like once electronics, and then synths were allowed drum corps turned into an 'anything goes' type of instrumentation mentality. I've actually been surprised that corps are still skewing WAY more towards traditional stuff than "weird" when it comes to percussion instrumentation and FX. For me once rules changes meant that literally any percussion timbre imaginable can be used in DCI, I guess I kind of feel for my brass brothers and don't see any problem with them getting to add whatever brass instrument they want. Now, DCI and its designers will REALLY put my mentality to the test if woodwinds are allowed... (PLEASE no one turn this into "OMG WOODWINDZZZ?!?! discussion...) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (FWIW I heard "Phantom of the Opera" via SCV before I heard the original or saw the musical, and I still prefer SCV 88 & 89 over the stage production and DEFINITELY over the film version). Me too. And thanks for such a thoughtful reply. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedyweidenthal Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I still cant believe that my favorite Drum Corps was in favor of allowing band instruments. Madison alumni aren't happy about this. Don't speak for all of us! I have talked to a lot of alumni that don't care or are in favor of the rule change and only a few that are upset. MYNWA 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamMan Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Don't speak for all of us! I have talked to a lot of alumni that don't care or are in favor of the rule change and only a few that are upset. MYNWA The young guys don't care. The guys who I marched with don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I too have listened to "Concerto," and can find no section which must be done on a trombone. I keep hearing this argument that no instrument can do a trombone glissando, except a trombone. Why not ask Madison 2010, Blue Devils 2004, etc. etc. whose lead trumpet players clearly are featured performing glissandos. Instead of watering down the drum corps unique instrumentation even more, why not teach the kids a new talent: playing through the valves? Clearly some folks know how to do this still, and they have performed valved glissandos quite well. Oh right... The whole "private instructor is going to kill me for blowing my chops/learning valves/not playing French horn" argument...How stupid of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I too have listened to "Concerto," and can find no section which must be done on a trombone. I keep hearing this argument that no instrument can do a trombone glissando, except a trombone. Why not ask Madison 2010, Blue Devils 2004, etc. etc. whose lead trumpet players clearly are featured performing glissandos. Instead of watering down the drum corps unique instrumentation even more, why not teach the kids a new talent: playing through the valves? Clearly some folks know how to do this still, and they have performed valved glissandos quite well. Oh right... The whole "private instructor is going to kill me for blowing my chops/learning valves/not playing French horn" argument...How stupid of me. I know how. If I know how, it can't be that daggone difficult, man. If the moment in the show sells regardless of what they play it on, I'm cool with it. Let's wait and see. it could be a great moment. Edited March 12, 2014 by BigW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 One of my favorite pieces of music that Madison has played was Buddy Rich's "Waltz of the Mushroom Hunters" - done in 1984. To this day I think it's one of the nicest parts of a show they have ever done. At no part during the piece did I think the voicing wasn't correct or that something done in the original jazz composition should have been replicated as is (Part of me did wish they used real mushroom's.....I kid). Madison was just so good at bringing pieces like this to the field. There has been a great effort on their part to remain true to their traditions - they've done so well at being the Madison I remember. Thing is, watching past Madison shows, I see one big difference now. I just don't find their guard to be such an integral part of their persona as it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Aces Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I don't know about anyone else, but anytime I hear "Stars and Stripes Forever" done by something other than a wind ensemble or orchestra, I'm always curious to see how the group is going to handle the piccolo solo. I always think it's cool seeing it on another instrument. For example (and there's many more like this), I saw a brass quintet play it once, and the tuba player did an awesome job playing the piccolo solo. I thought it was one of the coolest things I had seen in a while. Not once did I think it was sacrilege as Joe Allison puts it. I know, I know - different stokes and all that... Speaking of Madison, I don't think anyone (including Madison) tried to propose a rule change back in 1987 when they did the piccolo solo on a piccolo trumpet instead of an authentic piccolo (flute). People (design staff included) just accepted the fact that they couldn't use a piccolo (flute) at that time. My how times have changed... Edited March 12, 2014 by Quad Aces 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 The young guys don't care. The guys who I marched with don't like it. Can I ask when the last time they went to DCI show was? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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