Moving Up or Down in DCI Competition - The Data

[jjeffeory]

[Reposted from the other thread]

I can offer SOME insight on some of this from talking to members who were there and from personal experience.

Scouts '89 - Scouts went to Europe in '88, which drew a LOT of talented members and ageouts, AND staff who wanted to go to Europe. Scouts were 6th in 1987, 1st in 1988, and then 7th in 1989. Scouts scored a 93.6 in '89, which is a pretty high scores for 7th, but they loss some staff who moved to other corps. I know Todd Ryan, for example, moved from Madison in '88 to Star in '89. Basically, Madison knew how to win for 1 year, then forgot how to win.

Cadets '91 - Cadets decided to experiment in '91 with an abstract, minimalist show that the judges did not get. Cadets had won a bunch of titles pretty recently and decided to take some risks and do something that they considered to be more educational for the members while sticking to their "We only play music from American composers chant of the time". I actually heard this from Hoppy ( the educational, out of the box part). So I believe that they had an idea that they wouldn't win, but if you looked at their recent history, they won quite a few championships. They'd take a risk with something one year, and if they didn't win, they'd just win the next year, at will, like money in the bank. If you listen to anything that George has said, winning isn't everything; there's still bills to pay, blah, blah, blah...

SCV '90 - I remember this one the least, but they had a LOT of ageouts in '89. Royer was sick, but I don't know who knew it. Slower winter program than usual, and they still ended in 6th place with a 94.0 score. That year, Every corps in the top 5 beat every other corps at one point or another in the season. So SCV was still pretty successful even though they "only" got 6th place. '91 SCV gets 4th place with a 94.4. Not exactly a big comeback in score. The next year they dropped to 7th and Mr. Royer steps down and later passes.

Recently, we have The Cavaliers, who through a series of staff turn over issues over a period of several years, had their placement slip from that of a perennial top 4 corps of a couple decades to 8th in 2012 and and 7th in 2013. The problem didn't magically start in 2012, and you've really got to credit the members in 2010 and 2011 for their placements despite the problems.

In comparison, Phantom has never been a corps with stable placements from year to year, or really stable staff ( except they used to have a stable brass arranger and philosophy). They are quite often a top 6 corps, but I wouldn't say they "know" how to win. I think they get the right mix every once in a while.

BD has staff that seem to know to work the system, and most of them have been there a very long time. That wasn't the case when they were having their "down years" from '87 - '93 where their worst placement was "5th" and their lowest score was 93.8.

SCV hasn't been the same corps or as stable for staff since Royer passed. They made steady progress in improving from '93 - '99, then missed their mark for a couple of years until 2005 when they faltered ( kinda like the last time they did a tribute show in '92). So you think maybe there was some staff turnover from 2004 to 2005, and maybe some member turnover too? Gino went from SCV to Cadets ( where he still is). Casella left SCV after 2004.

Now they're trying to stabilize the placements and get back into contention, and they've obtained the staff that they feel can do this ( from Bluecoats, Cavaliers, and Phantom) and are improving on placement each year.

Bluecoats - Bluecoats aren't exactly the poster child of placement, but this latest post 2010 iteration seems to be one where they're building the staff and membership to make a run at the championship. Kinda like SCV. Still their visual staff hasn't been there for terribly long, but the administration and other staff has been together for a while.

Cadets staff have been together for a while, and they know how to work together. The visual caption has been in flux lately, but they're still pretty familiar with one another. I have no idea about the visual cleaning personnel there, but I'd bet they're pretty consistent and know their established system well.

So I don't think it's really that difficult to figure out why the placements don't fluctuate that much now compared to then. There's a limited amount of talented staff to go around that know their particular piece of the puzzle and they're sticking where they are for a bit of time. In the past, you'd have these talented people, who have things figured out, hop from corps to corps from year to year. That doesn't really happen as much anymore.

[Jeff Ream]

Shake ups as in one year x corps makes some crazy rise from out of the top 12 to the top 3 probably won't happen. But long trend shakeups can still happen.

Crown is an example of a shake up. It just takes a while. It takes the right formula, the right direction, the right team. crown 96-06 broke through the race for 12th tier that BK has been struggling to break out of, and broke into the middle tier that Boston is struggling to break out of. and since then have been consistently top 4. That is a major shake-up. if the blue knights in 10 years are in the top 4 consistently, I would consider it a shakeup.

But apart from these isolated cases, yeah we won't see annual shakeups.

agreed. in 2002, they were out of finals with that god awful show. in 03 back in, and then slowly climbing the ranks to 2008, where bingo! top 4, where they haven't left yet.

Let's face it....the talent pool is deep, and there's fewer corps to go to.So even if someone leaves BD, someone good has to step up and replace them. the corps at the top rarely have massive staff shakeups anymore...best recent example would be whats happened to Cavies with Gaines gone.

The impetus is on the lower corps to make themselves more attractive for top talent to go there, and for top designers and staff to make those places their home. Not just a mail in drill or horn book, but a place they plant their flag.

paying fees because someone leaves is ludicrous. it's like you think this is MLB pre-Curt Flood where once you go to a team, you're there for life. It doesn't work that way. Once a season ends, that persons commitment to that corps ends.

[Jeff Ream]

Well, thats mixing apples and oranges... a sensible and reasonable transfer policy is certainly not contingent upon a finders fee being implemented in my view ( although depending on the specifcs of it, in theory, I would not be automatically opposed to a sensible finders fee implementation as well. Its dependent naturally on the speciics of it all.. But... lets not hold our breathe here. I'm pretty much alone and whistling in the wind here on this, as I see little to no appetite to even begin to discuss possible transfer rules, as we like things just the way re. the unfettered lemmings like annual and upward flow of marchers between Corps each offseason . Most are ok with all this since the Cadevaliers took over the top spot in DCI, and the Beatles announced to the public that they were splitting up.

appetite? there's no need.

performers are not chattle to be traded at whim or for fees. They sign a contract for one year and that's it.

[GUARDLING]

agreed. in 2002, they were out of finals with that god awful show. in 03 back in, and then slowly climbing the ranks to 2008, where bingo! top 4, where they haven't left yet.

Let's face it....the talent pool is deep, and there's fewer corps to go to.So even if someone leaves BD, someone good has to step up and replace them. the corps at the top rarely have massive staff shakeups anymore...best recent example would be whats happened to Cavies with Gaines gone.

The impetus is on the lower corps to make themselves more attractive for top talent to go there, and for top designers and staff to make those places their home. Not just a mail in drill or horn book, but a place they plant their flag.

paying fees because someone leaves is ludicrous. it's like you think this is MLB pre-Curt Flood where once you go to a team, you're there for life. It doesn't work that way. Once a season ends, that persons commitment to that corps ends.

Now this is the REALITY of the activity.

[Jeff Ream]

Now this is the REALITY of the activity.

hey now, i don't want to get nailed for taking someone else's tag line about keeping it real LOL

[Cleveland1]

agreed. in 2002, they were out of finals with that god awful show. in 03 back in, and then slowly climbing the ranks to 2008, where bingo! top 4, where they haven't left yet.

Let's face it....the talent pool is deep, and there's fewer corps to go to.So even if someone leaves BD, someone good has to step up and replace them. the corps at the top rarely have massive staff shakeups anymore...best recent example would be whats happened to Cavies with Gaines gone.

The impetus is on the lower corps to make themselves more attractive for top talent to go there, and for top designers and staff to make those places their home. Not just a mail in drill or horn book, but a place they plant their flag.

paying fees because someone leaves is ludicrous. it's like you think this is MLB pre-Curt Flood where once you go to a team, you're there for life. It doesn't work that way. Once a season ends, that persons commitment to that corps ends.

One thing i always wanted to look into is the regional corps impact on each other.

It appears not much. Cavies took a hit and it didn't stop phantom from being inconsistent. Madison made a resurgence, but aren't blue stars staff changes the main issue regarding their fall after toeing the top 6?

Are the bluecoats better off as the only Ohio corps? Or bythe time glassmen folded was the talent mostly going to Bluecoats?

Should it be easy for corps like BK, troop, Crossmen, and Academy to retain? As they don't have near "competition"? How much out-of-state talent does BD pull compared to SCV? I know a lot of corps have camps around the country, for example.

I feel like the top tier corps have the luxury of large universities in athletics. They automatically attract the best local talent, and they can afford to pursue the best talent from elsewhere.

Also, what states have the best high school programs? If Colorado has a poor HS system for competitive marching band, BK will need to work harder to develop their talent. Especially if the best college talent has their eyes on premier corps like BD or even Cadets.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Cleveland1

[perc2100]

It is interesting how back in the 70's corps could swing back & forth 10-20 places with ease. Granted there were far more corps back then, but I wonder if, say there were 45 world-class these days, would we see these swings?

Could that also be because of the tic system? It seems like a judging philosophy based largely on performance quality could be an impetus for large swings in placements year-to-year, especially in the middle-lower achieving groups. We are talking about kids/young-adults who are consistent to an extent but still only as consistent as young adults/kids can be: especially if a corps has more newbies/youngin's one year and solid vets the next.

[GUARDLING]

Could that also be because of the tic system? It seems like a judging philosophy based largely on performance quality could be an impetus for large swings in placements year-to-year, especially in the middle-lower achieving groups. We are talking about kids/young-adults who are consistent to an extent but still only as consistent as young adults/kids can be: especially if a corps has more newbies/youngin's one year and solid vets the next.

YES! more that the system had little accountability of judges and that it was extremely subjective...ONE HOT MESS

[va9590jm]

One thing i always wanted to look into is the regional corps impact on each other.

It appears not much. Cavies took a hit and it didn't stop phantom from being inconsistent. Madison made a resurgence, but aren't blue stars staff changes the main issue regarding their fall after toeing the top 6?

Are the bluecoats better off as the only Ohio corps? Or bythe time glassmen folded was the talent mostly going to Bluecoats?

Should it be easy for corps like BK, troop, Crossmen, and Academy to retain? As they don't have near "competition"? How much out-of-state talent does BD pull compared to SCV? I know a lot of corps have camps around the country, for example.

I feel like the top tier corps have the luxury of large universities in athletics. They automatically attract the best local talent, and they can afford to pursue the best talent from elsewhere.

Also, what states have the best high school programs? If Colorado has a poor HS system for competitive marching band, BK will need to work harder to develop their talent. Especially if the best college talent has their eyes on premier corps like BD or even Cadets.

A couple things, it seems like every year more and more corps have auditions in Texas, so everyone is feeding off of the large population within the state and quality band programs there (again, by virtue of large population). That could in part hurt Crossmen, as although they don't have "near" competition, for a camp or two there is, and that's when it matters most, during the audition process.

Also, as seems to be a general consensus, retention is key. Marc Sylvester said it best a few years back, "The best talent out there are Blue Knights [insert your corps here] wearing other uniforms."

[Jeff Ream]

One thing i always wanted to look into is the regional corps impact on each other.

It appears not much. Cavies took a hit and it didn't stop phantom from being inconsistent. Madison made a resurgence, but aren't blue stars staff changes the main issue regarding their fall after toeing the top 6?

Are the bluecoats better off as the only Ohio corps? Or bythe time glassmen folded was the talent mostly going to Bluecoats?

Should it be easy for corps like BK, troop, Crossmen, and Academy to retain? As they don't have near "competition"? How much out-of-state talent does BD pull compared to SCV? I know a lot of corps have camps around the country, for example.

I feel like the top tier corps have the luxury of large universities in athletics. They automatically attract the best local talent, and they can afford to pursue the best talent from elsewhere.

Also, what states have the best high school programs? If Colorado has a poor HS system for competitive marching band, BK will need to work harder to develop their talent. Especially if the best college talent has their eyes on premier corps like BD or even Cadets.

the two Ohio corps I know have many members from PA...where you have the Cadets. top corps pull in from all over. Remember the howling when Phantom went back to an all female guard? People screamed Madison and Cavies would overflow with male talent. Oh wait, look at their latest placements.