The Troopers, the American Legion, and a Rebuttal

[2muchcoffeeman]

I could take the post you linked as saying people in 1977 could enjoy the show just like people in 2014. Seriously unless there is another post buried somewhere this could be taken in different ways and you took it as an insult and it was off to the races on DCP.

I suppose you could be right. I have no information about the age of the person who made the remark, or his/her motivation. Perhaps I've been exposed to the internet's natural inclination toward irony and cynicism for so long that I was predisposed to see it as a slam.

Still, I have other pieces of evidence -- parents reporting to me that their kids want to try drum corps but have no intention of giving the "boring" Troopers a look, etc. -- that I am sensitive to the charge that Troopers Just Don't Get It.

So, I will pause and enjoy the idea that you have the correct interpretation. Thanks.

[JimF-LowBari]

I suppose you could be right. I have no information about the age of the person who made the remark, or his/her motivation. Perhaps I've been exposed to the internet's natural inclination toward irony and cynicism for so long that I was predisposed to see it as a slam.

Still, I have other pieces of evidence -- parents reporting to me that their kids want to try drum corps but have no intention of giving the "boring" Troopers a look, etc. -- that I am sensitive to the charge that Troopers Just Don't Get It.

So, I will pause and enjoy the idea that you have the correct interpretation. Thanks.

No problem... and love that Beeker avatar....

I based my guess on the posters age by their signature, maybe you don't have sigs set to show up.....

As for other pieces of evidence have heard that with a lot of corps playing the same old, same old so can believe it.

Edited August 19, 2014 by JimF-LowBari

[KVG_DC]

Honestly, I've no idea what "the kids" are saying about Troop today. Back when I was in High School (late 80s) they were one of our fan favorites if only because the uniforms were sharp, the look was different, and the Drum Major was ###### in being meticulously exact and holding up the retreat with the slow march. This was the year of the Wyoming Centennial show and they were 17th at semifinals that year I think. We still loved them simply for standing out with their own traditions and being different. Everyone wanted to be "that drum major" who didn't give a crap about time and ordering, it was about the marching.

[BRASSO]

That attitude towards this corps is not really going to go until they move away from continuously doing American music.

DCI needs more music from European Composers... old Europeon composers.... even better yet, if they are white, European composers..... and better still, if they've been pushing up daisies in a European gravesite ( sometimes unmarked ) for a couple or centuries.

American kids find this music " cool ", and as you said, kids in modern day marching band and DCI's version of marching band want to be hip and cool.

So the Troopers should do music we are apt to find played in Vienna... or better yet, in Zurich or Florence. And for diversity, the Troopers could play something from a Russian Composer. Besides, the rest of the world, doesn't think " American Muic " is hip and cool" anymore. In Europe, all the hip and cool kids like to listen to all the REALLY " old stuff" in music, like Swan Lake, and music from Brahms, Mozart, etc, and watch old Fellini Films, and old Dada inspired " stuff " Art, etc.

Edited August 19, 2014 by BRASSO

[seen-it-all]

Then why this persistent critique that the Troopers are a relic? Cadets can play “Lincoln” and earn a medal, but Troop draws from the same material and gets a bus ticket to the nearest American Legion contest. For that matter, the Cadets’ uniform has its roots in a far older era than does the Troopers’ uniform. Yet Troop is the corps that is popularly dismissed as musty. I don’t get it.

I don't really understand the whole argument about how old the music is being some kind of factor. I don't think that's it at all. As for the uniform thing, you make an interesting comparison to the Cadets. While the Cadets uniform may have its roots in a far older era, it's also far more generic in its military appearance. One could see similar style uniforms from other nations throughout the world in their histories. The Troopers on the other hand wear such an iconic uniform associated with a very specific American era of history. As such, I believe it lends itself more to being more quintessentially "American" in what it stands for. When you add in the history of the Troopers themselves in maximizing that look to their advantage and establishing a pattern of playing certain kinds of music with certain kinds of themes to their shows, it's clear to see why they've faced some challenges recently in maintaining who they are and what they stand for while they try to adapt with the times. It's a delicate balance that many other corps haven't had to face in quite the same way as they have.

To be fair, the Troopers have adapted as best they can in recent years. Their arrangements are modern, they utilize modern visual techniques and modern color guard work. They've even adapted their uniforms slightly. They've been clearly looking to find that balance, and as we all saw back in 2009, when it works, they instantly become a sentimental favorite with the crowds. That's because of all the good will they've built up over the years with audiences, whether they were performing well as a corps or not. People DO instinctively have a soft spot in their hearts for the Troopers. And despite what some people might say here and otherwise, I think many young people interested in drum corps are indeed attracted to things that are overtly traditional and steeped in a very clear historical context.

The Cadets long ago changed the way drum corps was played. Nobody cared about the uniform they wore because corps pretty much kept the same look for much longer back then, AND mostly because what they were doing on the field was so unlike anything anyone had ever seen. And as time went on, keeping their uniform the same became part of their whole new identity as "tradition as innovation." Their look was traditional, yet their performance and design was cutting edge. It was a concept that completely worked in every way. Primarily because they were so freaking good and that allowed them to get away with it.

I'm not sure the Troopers could get away with taking that same path of maintinaing their look and just doing whatever they wanted on the field, and honestly, I don't think they need to. I believe there is very much a way for them to remain true to who they are in look and style and still be a very modern drum corps. It's not easy. What lures people in when it comes to getting kids to march in your corps is excellence, pure and simple. And the thing that the Troopers have that not many other corps have is that name and that history and that tradition. I believe they should totally embrace their Americana style and all the things that have made them who they are. They've proven that when done well, that stuff sells in a big way. Because deep down, I think that's what people want to see and hear from them. Years ago, Jeff Fiedler talked about how the Cavaliers have been able to take all of their history and traditions and colors, which can at times restrict creativity, and make it all work FOR them. The Troopers can do that. It would take time and the right creative director and the right design team and staff, but it could definitely be done.

Edited August 19, 2014 by seen-it-all

[2muchcoffeeman]

I had to take a knee to make it all the way through your initial post. Brevity can be good lol.

Sorry, man. I felt I had to show my work.

Second, the last thing I would consider a factor in the "grandfather" criticism is the age of the composition. I still don't see what that has to do with it

Well, the critique is that Troopers are irrelevant because their music belongs in 1970s. Meaning: their music is old. So, I checked the age of their music selections to test the assertion against reality.

Perhaps what these critics mean to say is that Troopers music sounds old. It may be a valid critique, but I have yet to hear anyone explain why that is so. I've not heard anyone critique Robert Smith's arrangements as sounding old. If that is what they really mean when they dismiss Troopers as out of touch, then fine, but let's see the evidence that Troop is botching the job of arranging music and writing visual for 21st-century drum corps.

Perhaps what truly underlies this critique of Troopers is that the category of music from which they draw most of their programming is regarded as old, fusty, out of date.

Okay, great. Let's have that discussion. Why can't American music cut it in drum corps? And why can a corps like the Cadets play it and win a medal, but a corps like Troopers is laughed off the stage (by some) when they play it?

Well, maybe because it's really about talent and performance quality, not the category of music. Okay. So why isn't the critique Hey, this Troopers show is nice, and it would be even better if they could march it cleaner, or improve the sound quality.

No. Instead, what we hear is Ha. This show would win -- in 1977. So, I respond to the critique that actually is made.

Because, see, I think it's harmful to the Troopers to allow the casual, off-the-cuff perception that they are a museum piece to persist. Kids don't dig into the data like we do. They take their cues and make their decisions while swimming in a soup of peer pressure, where the biggest fear is getting out of step with the people in their circle, of being seen as uncool.

All I want is for the discussion to be held on the correct ground. If a young person has a passion for classical music and dreams of Phantom, that's great and she should get herself to Rockford pronto. If a kid can throw sixes all day long and can't imagine himself being anything other than a Scout, let's buy that kid a ticket to Madison.

And if a kid is open to any possibility and would be just as likely to give Troopers a shot as any other corps, then let's not let some empty, bogus characterization of being 40 years behind the rest of DCI turn that kid away from Troop before he or she has a chance to give them a look.

I would counter that the "grandfather" critique has more to do with the old fashioned uniform selection (from the 7th Ohio Cavalry of 1870-something). And also because of the Americana music they play. You've seen it on DCP all summer, patriotism is an outdated notion, America bad, blah blah. Mirroring the country's leadership. To me, that's the cool factor. It's cool to trash patriotism. Ahh, to be young....

It's the 11th Ohio Cavalry. Thus, the "11" in the cross-sabres logo. As uniforms go, it is rooted in a more modern era than some others, such as Cadets and BAC.

The proposition that patriotism is outmoded is an interesting one. Bluecoats seemed to get away with it just fine in 2013 with "Looking for America." I would be surprised if Cadets see a dropoff in 2015 audition numbers because of their production this year. But perhaps there is something to the idea.

Edited August 19, 2014 by 2muchcoffeeman

[ibexpercussion]

I for one enjoyed the Troopers show this year. Their musical style/selections reflect their tradition, and they do a good job of making it a "modern drum corps show" as well.

[Cappybara]

Sorry, man. I felt I had to show my work.

Well, the critique is that Troopers are irrelevant because their music belongs in 1970s. Meaning: their music is old. So, I checked the age of their music selections to test the assertion against reality.

Perhaps what these critics mean to say is that Troopers music sounds old. It may be a valid critique, but I have yet to hear anyone explain why that is so. I've not heard anyone critique Robert Smith's arrangements as sounding old. If that is what they really mean when they dismiss Troopers as out of touch, then fine, but let's see the evidence that Troop is botching the job of arranging music and writing visual for 21st-century drum corps.

Perhaps what truly underlies this critique of Troopers is that the category of music from which they draw most of their programming is regarded as old, fusty, out of date.

Okay, great. Let's have that discussion. Why can't American music cut it in drum corps? And why can a corps like the Cadets play it and win a medal, but a corps like Troopers is laughed off the stage (by some) when they play it?

Well, maybe because it's really about talent and performance quality, not the category of music. Okay. So why isn't the critique Hey, this Troopers show is nice, and it would be even better if they could march it cleaner, or improve the sound quality.

No. Instead, what we hear is Ha. This show would win -- in 1977. So, I respond to the critique that actually is made.

Because, see, I think it's harmful to the Troopers to allow the casual, off-the-cuff perception that they are a museum piece to persist. Kids don't dig into the data like we do. They take their cues and make their decisions while swimming in a soup of peer pressure, where the biggest fear is getting out of step with the people in their circle, of being seen as uncool.

All I want is for the discussion to be held on the correct ground. If a young person has a passion for classical music and dreams of Phantom, that's great and she should get herself to Rockford pronto. If a kid can throw sixes all day long and can't imagine himself being anything other than a Scout, let's buy that kid a ticket to Madison.

And if a kid is open to any possibility and would be just as likely to give Troopers a shot as any other corps, then let's not let some empty, bogus characterization of being 40 years behind the rest of DCI turn that kid away from Troop before he or she has a chance to give them a look.

It's the 11th Ohio Cavalry. Thus, the "11" in the cross-sabres logo. As uniforms go, it is rooted in a more modern era than some others, such as Cadets and BAC.

The proposition that patriotism is outmoded is an interesting one. Bluecoats seemed to get away with it just fine in 2013 with "Looking for America." I would be surprised if Cadets see a dropoff in 2015 audition numbers because of their production this year. But perhaps there is something to the idea.

You nailed it with the first statement that I bolded. Among my peers, patriotism is something that is joked about and laughed at. In an era where all kids are being taught to be suspicious and critical of our government, would you expect anything different? The days of being patriotic ended, in my opinion, when the mass media became a huge thing during the Vietnam War. And now, all this Americana stuff is considered old and historic.

Yes, the Bluecoats got away with it in 2013 because it wasn't ANYTHING like an Americana show. That was a modern American drum corps show done right. The only hints of patriotism in there were their 2 flag sets in the opener and closer and the colorguard flags in the closer. The show itself was described as a modern American drum corps story if I remember correctly.

[2muchcoffeeman]

I don't really understand the whole argument about how old the music is being some kind of factor. I don't think that's it at all. As for the uniform thing, you make an interesting comparison to the Cadets. While the Cadets uniform may have its roots in a far older era, it's also far more generic in its military appearance. One could see similar style uniforms from other nations throughout the world in their histories. The Troopers on the other hand wear such an iconic uniform associated with a very specific American era of history. As such, I believe it lends itself more to being more quintessentially "American" in what it stands for. When you add in the history of the Troopers themselves in maximizing that look to their advantage and establishing a pattern of playing certain kinds of music with certain kinds of themes to their shows, it's clear to see why they've faced some challenges recently in maintaining who they are and what they stand for while they try to adapt with the times. It's a delicate balance that many other corps haven't had to face in quite the same way as they have.

To be fair, the Troopers have adapted as best they can in recent years. Their arrangements are modern, they utilize modern visual techniques and modern color guard work. They've even adapted their uniforms slightly. They've been clearly looking to find that balance, and as we all saw back in 2009, when it works, they instantly become a sentimental favorite with the crowds. That's because of all the good will they've built up over the years with audiences, whether they were performing well as a corps or not. People DO instinctively have a soft spot in their hearts for the Troopers. And despite what some people might say here and otherwise, I think many young people interested in drum corps are indeed attracted to things that are overtly traditional and steeped in a very clear historical context.

The Cadets long ago changed the way drum corps was played. Nobody cared about the uniform they wore because corps pretty much kept the same look for much longer back then, AND mostly because what they were doing on the field was so unlike anything anyone had ever seen. And as time went on, keeping their uniform the same became part of their whole new identity as "tradition as innovation." Their look was traditional, yet their performance and design was cutting edge. It was a concept that completely worked in every way. Primarily because they were so freaking good and that allowed them to get away with it.

I'm not sure the Troopers could get away with taking that same path of maintinaing their look and just doing whatever they wanted on the field, and honestly, I don't think they need to. I believe there is very much a way for them to remain true to who they are in look and style and still be a very modern drum corps. It's not easy. What lures people in when it comes to getting kids to march in your corps is excellence, pure and simple. And the thing that the Troopers have that not many other corps have is that name and that history and that tradition. I believe they should totally embrace their Americana style and all the things that have made them who they are. They've proven that when done well, that stuff sells in a big way. Because deep down, I think that's what people want to see and hear from them. Years ago, Jeff Fiedler talked about how the Cavaliers have been able to take all of their history and traditions and colors, which can at times restrict creativity, and make it all work FOR them. The Troopers can do that. It would take time and the right creative director and the right design team and staff, but it could definitely be done.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. This is exactly the ground where I had hoped this discussion would take place. What I take away from your observations is that Troopers have very little margin for error, when it comes to show design.

[2muchcoffeeman]

You nailed it with the first statement that I bolded. Among my peers, patriotism is something that is joked about and laughed at. In an era where all kids are being taught to be suspicious and critical of our government, would you expect anything different? The days of being patriotic ended, in my opinion, when the mass media became a huge thing during the Vietnam War. And now, all this Americana stuff is considered old and historic.

Yes, the Bluecoats got away with it in 2013 because it wasn't ANYTHING like an Americana show. That was a modern American drum corps show done right. The only hints of patriotism in there were their 2 flag sets in the opener and closer and the colorguard flags in the closer. The show itself was described as a modern American drum corps story if I remember correctly.

Okay, cool. So let's examine why Cadets went over-the-top with Americana this year and got a medal. Why would any kid, let alone some of the best talent in the pool, go to Cadets for that kind of program?

Bluecoats had more American flags spinning on the field in 2013 than even the Troopers did. They even did a parade block. But what really intrigues me is the argument that "Looking for America" was "a modern American drum corps show done right." What made it "right"? What made that show more "modern" than the Troopers' "Magnificent 11"? What elements were present in the Bluecoats show that were missing from the Troopers show?