Eleran Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Amid all the noise and rancor that seems to dominate everything online, it is possible to find quiet corners where reasoned discussion occurs. For those who hunger for a sober, respectful and meaningful discussion on the ground where civil liberties of gays bump up against the religious liberties of believers, I recommend this debate between two legal minds. No matter what side you claim on this debate, you will be both affirmed and challenged. You will come away with greater insight to your way of thinking, while you also will gain greater appreciation for the views of those on the other side of the table. The legal lens through which these two lawyers examine the issue is not exactly the same as the RFRA, but the same principles are in play. It is familiar territory to those who have engaged in this national debate for the past few days. It takes 10-15 minutes to read through. I disagree with Kelly's final argument, however (the one preceding his brief note on comparisons to Jim Crow). It may not confer the dignity immediately by enlightening the individuals who wanted to discriminate presently, but it changes the status quo in which the next generation will develop its own moral compass, and will thus likely, in fact, confer that dignity over time. It was, in my opinion, an ill-chosen anecdote to use about the child sitting down defiantly, because children often take their lessons from elders defiantly, not willingly, and yet years later when they have matured into adulthood, find that such lessons in fact improved them. Edited April 1, 2015 by Eleran 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pes49 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 https://youtu.be/5OIr5Y-FaSM After all the dozens of pages written about the ridiculous situation created by the GOP controlled legislature and the Governor of Indiana, the above video brings the issue back into focus. Be sure to listen to the end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I disagree with Kelly's final argument, however (the one preceding his brief note on comparisons to Jim Crow). It may not confer the dignity immediately by enlightening the individuals who wanted to discriminate presently, but it changes the status quo in which the next generation will develop its own moral compass, and will thus likely, in fact, confer that dignity over time. It was, in my opinion, an ill-chosen anecdote to use about the child sitting down defiantly, because children often take their lessons from elders defiantly, not willingly, and yet years later when they have matured into adulthood, find that such lessons in fact improved them. Hm. Yes, I understand your point. Though if I were to anticipate a response from Kelly, it might be that if anything can be characterized as "mature," it is the milennia-old search for the meaning of the world, grounded in the scripture and tradition of religious communities. Modern policy positions regarding LGBT issues are not the product of rank, unthinking animus. They are the product of a lifelong attempt to understand of who God is. There is a very deep well of theological reflection behind these surfacey political events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 DCi should just move finals anyway. the left coast is way overdue 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 2 much coffee: Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't read much of the magazine since its founder died. Glad First Things is still sticking to the depth of discussion it's founder Richard Neuhaus intentended. He was a Protestant theologian who became a Roman Catholic then a Roman Catholic priest. He continued his dialogue with popes, presidents, and plain folk. We're better for it. JJeff: There are circles of folks who won't dare discuss religion or politics due to how personal and varied are the opinions. I guess DCPers aren't restricted to circle drills. And that is a very good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleran Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Modern policy positions regarding LGBT issues ... are the product of a lifelong attempt to understand of who God is. There is a very deep well of theological reflection behind these surfacey political events. I personally think that's an extreme overstatement, but ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) I've missed your past references to this, Jeff...but I'll plead "calendrial ignorance," since I've only been a DCP member since August of 2013... But your point is clear...and valid. I, myself, am of 15/16th English bloodline, and 1/16ths Irish (my 2nd great-grandmother, Mary Sullivan of Killarney...bless her holy soul). Whenever I'm celebrating St. Patrick's Day...or cheering on the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame (funny...a school established by a group of French Clerics becoming known as the "Fighting Irish"...thank goodness for some of the "Four Horsemen"), I'm continually reminded by my Irish friends, "But remember, laddie,,,you're not TRUE Irish." Funny how the world operates at times... First college course I took was there, summer of 1969, first time to Indiana too. Here's your answer HT: http://www.und.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html And for those who fulminate that it's a religion vs. gay rights jilt, there is this: https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/583070567227609088/photo/1 Edited April 1, 2015 by xandandl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hm. Yes, I understand your point. Though if I were to anticipate a response from Kelly, it might be that if anything can be characterized as "mature," it is the milennia-old search for the meaning of the world, grounded in the scripture and tradition of religious communities. Modern policy positions regarding LGBT issues are not the product of rank, unthinking animus. They are the product of a lifelong attempt to understand of who God is. There is a very deep well of theological reflection behind these surfacey political events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingusmonk Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Should DCI boycott ALL states that have similar laws. 20 States have almost the exact same law on the books. They were all based off of the 1993 federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act. If it's an issue in Indiana, shouldn't it also be an issue in Alabama, Connecticut, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and Virginia? Just some food for thought. 5 days and 55 pages later, and we still have people making "20 states have the same law" posts. Which then kicks of the same links in reply as the previous 17 times. Are y'all actually reading this thread? It's like living my own Groundhog Day movie. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I personally think that's an extreme overstatement, but ... You are, of course, free to think whatever you wish, but if you ever have an interest in discovering the theological grounding that forms the way (thinking, serious, grown-up) religious citizens act in the public square, it's just a few clicks away. See you at the shows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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