garfield Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Does anyone actually play rudiments anymore? And if so, couldn't a qualified percussion adjudicator "see" (as well as hear) them from a distance? Many years ago we eliminated inspections because the minutia of a speck of dust on the horn bell had virtually nothing to do with the quality of performance. This "drum judge on the field" thing will die hard. It's somewhat ironic that drum corps has warmly embraced mixing pure brass and percussion texture with electronics, yet holds on so tightly to the ghost of the tick in this case. I have no categorical objection to preserving the purity of the batterie, but any adjudicator in the actual performance area constitutes a distraction for me, and I am quite confident that the best of them can evaluate even the smallest details from a respectful distance. In the final analysis, the corps themselves will decide how they wish to be evaluated, and that is as it should be, I think. I refer back to this because I respect your reputation even if you have no idea who I am. And my answer is: While I respect your efforts in eliminating a useless part of a drum corps show (inspections) you're equating "...a speck of dust on the bell..." to writing music to maximize the challenge of playing it well as a group. Oil and water I think and, I might add, spoken as the quality blow-hard horn tooter I know your reputation to be. And you and others refer to this as some desire to retain some percussion-thing from the past (along with the connotation that someday we drummers will see the light as the enlightened dirty-horned brass players have ). It's not about "preserving" anything from the past - I'm confident you don't want to re-experience the drum lines of the tic days compared to the amazing talent of today's players, especially when paired up with the incredibly talented current-day brass lines. If we as drummer-MM and fan-drummers want to preserve anything it is the progression of seemingly ever-increasing demand and talent to attain it. Edited January 12, 2016 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) seeing people out of step at finals is significant. Sadly, it's become a top down activity, and what I think we're going to see is if the attention isn't focused on the bottom, it will bleed over to the top. I've seen it happen at the HS level I think my point is the quality has never been higher and with far less rules or in your face judging like we had at one time. I think no matter how it plays out, now or in the future ( and future will be different for many things ) the quality will continue. I heard many years ago how quality was not the same as it was and that simply is not true. Actually it was true. it's not the same it's beyond better. Now specifically to percussion, as I said many times already, the powers to be in the activity, and I support the percussion people deciding this , will either make the change now , in the future or maybe even not at all. Time will tell. Edited January 12, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 As a drummer, and a fan, I'm hoping for whatever gives me more entertaining and exciting shows. We're debating how many angels can paradiddle on a pin, honestly; even if the writing "suffers" with no judges to run back and forth in front of lines (which is not a given, BTW), the end result will not be that obvious. It's not like lines will start playing 8th note features. Mike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 As a drummer, and a supporter of what drum corps can do for young people, I'm hoping for whatever provides them the best educational experience possible. The fan enjoyment is a byproduct. I want the rule book to reward the kids first, fans second. I agree we are concerning ourselves with matters of intricate detail. Very nerdy inside-drumline stuff. I can understand why eyes are rolling. But I don't think there is any escaping this: If the sheets are rewritten so that the finest details separating one drum line from another no longer can be discerned (and they can't from the sideline alone -- someone produce a judge who says otherwise), then the detail no longer can be rewarded, plain and simple. If it cannot be rewarded, there is no incentive to include it. If there is no incentive to include it, then percussion writing will become less sophisticated, requiring less skill and commitment to percussion excellence. Encouraging less sophistication in any aspect of the form is not in the interest of the customers -- the members -- who pay for the most rewarding educational and performance experience they can get in the marching arts. As to the purpose behind the proposal, I've yet to hear an argument how putting judges on the sideline results in "more entertaining and exciting shows." How does removing a judge from the field enhance entertainment? Anyone want to argue that removing judges from the field during Crown's show would have made the crowd go that much more bonkers? That it would have made the show more exciting? I'm all for more entertainment and excitement, too. I just haven't seen any evidence that this proposal produces more of either. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfever Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Hey 2muchcoffeeman: you're spot on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 As a drummer, and a supporter of what drum corps can do for young people, I'm hoping for whatever provides them the best educational experience possible. The fan enjoyment is a byproduct. I want the rule book to reward the kids first, fans second. I agree we are concerning ourselves with matters of intricate detail. Very nerdy inside-drumline stuff. I can understand why eyes are rolling. But I don't think there is any escaping this: If the sheets are rewritten so that the finest details separating one drum line from another no longer can be discerned (and they can't from the sideline alone -- someone produce a judge who says otherwise), then the detail no longer can be rewarded, plain and simple. If it cannot be rewarded, there is no incentive to include it. If there is no incentive to include it, then percussion writing will become less sophisticated, requiring less skill and commitment to percussion excellence. Encouraging less sophistication in any aspect of the form is not in the interest of the customers -- the members -- who pay for the most rewarding educational and performance experience they can get in the marching arts. As to the purpose behind the proposal, I've yet to hear an argument how putting judges on the sideline results in "more entertaining and exciting shows." How does removing a judge from the field enhance entertainment? Anyone want to argue that removing judges from the field during Crown's show would have made the crowd go that much more bonkers? That it would have made the show more exciting? I'm all for more entertainment and excitement, too. I just haven't seen any evidence that this proposal produces more of either. great points of view although i do know many drum designer/writers would would differ in opinion as to the quality continuing. But differences in opinions of those involved is not a bad thing, Often it can result in a common ground and a middle of the road decision where all can be appreciated. ( Hopefully)..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 "..quality blow-hard horn tooter I know your reputation to be." Well, I guess that's telling me. This made me smile. I really don't take myself all that seriously, as those who actually know me will attest. Besides, "who we are" has nothing to do with the validity that attaches to our various positions here. Many posters have pretty deep experience and solid credentials, some very little and few, but all have a right to express themselves so long as respect is evident. Humor is a good tonic, but snarky-ness doesn't bring much to the party. I'll try to keep mine at bay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I think my point is the quality has never been higher and with far less rules or in your face judging like we had at one time. I think no matter how it plays out, now or in the future ( and future will be different for many things ) the quality will continue. I heard many years ago how quality was not the same as it was and that simply is not true. Actually it was true. it's not the same it's beyond better. Now specifically to percussion, as I said many times already, the powers to be in the activity, and I support the percussion people deciding this , will either make the change now , in the future or maybe even not at all. Time will tell. people out of step at finals is quality? I'm talking in top placing corps! Saw it both circuits this summer. Yes, there is high quality. I won't argue that. But if you stop focusing attention to the details, or allow the details to become easy to achieve, then is it quality? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) people out of step at finals is quality? I'm talking in top placing corps! Saw it both circuits this summer. Yes, there is high quality. I won't argue that. But if you stop focusing attention to the details, or allow the details to become easy to achieve, then is it quality? Yes it's quality jeff. Its like saying the winning guard had a drop in todays demanding shows, so what. Now if it's a consistent thing or pretty much a mess of course not. One can certainly see if something is random or a hot mess( you have said it yourself many times ). A hot mess certainly has not been IMO in those top spots. Well that's not totally true I can go back to shows some very old, many revere as the best of the best and find those same things you mention. Noone is saying details are not important ( it's also how we clean ) BUT if judges are as trained as they claim ,,do you need to be a few feet away and if one does have to to find a mistake to a detail is that a little crazy. This is just my opinion, ( well not really just me ) but as I said over and over IF you guys decide this is what it takes to make your line better and need that to do it, then so be it . Put more judges on the field if you need it. Again, I did say if you guys want this to stay OR to go ,the percussion people will decide this and I am more than happy to support it. I think the debate should go to other drummers like one above who felt differently. Those differences or those who will agree within the activity ultimately will decide which way it goes. As far as making it easier, i do not believe for one second that writer or designers will make it easier , especially for those top lines. If there are staff that do not challenge, ( smartly ) or dont look at their own program for growth then time for some new staff. I'm actually a little surprised that getting to know you these past few years that you yourself believe Harder is always better. IMO bigger ,harder, louder does not mean better. I do believe you also believe this BUT you are very strong on the field judge thing and that's more than ok. You are in the activity, in the percussion arena, so all I can say is hope your piers feel the same. Maybe I just have more faith in some of the great drum staffs i have had the honor of working with or knowing, that the quality and attention to detail would continue with or without big brother in their face. Maybe you are right though. Either way ( as I said ) it's up to you guys and Im very much ok with that. Edited January 12, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Yes it's quality jeff. Its like saying the winning guard had a drop in todays demanding shows, so what. Yes, it is like that... and some people might actually contend that zero drops is higher quality. Quality is, as DCI suggests, subjective. Noone is saying details are not important ( it's also how we clean ) BUT if judges are as trained as they claim ,,do you need to be a few feet away and if one does have to to find a mistake to a detail is that a little crazy. No, that is not crazy. But it is not as simple as you describe. You can hear the battery from a distance, if no one else is there. But can you still hear them with as many as 80 horns getting between you and the battery? The proposal advocates putting the judge off the sideline/pit area. Can you hear the battery when over a dozen pit performers pound on tons of equipment? Can you hear them over the amplified sounds coming from the pit speakers? Can you hear battery clearly from other judging locations (i.e. press box), with that much more distance compromising clarity and as many as 20,000 noisy fans between you and the corps? By the way, the answer to all those questions is not a simple "no", but rather, "sometimes". You can hear the battery from your seat in the stands, sometimes. The percussion performance judge does not have to settle for "sometimes", though, as they have discovered that taking a position somewhere near the battery enables them to hear them clearly and constantly, over all the possible interferences I listed above. Not sure why you mention "training". Are you inferring that if drum judges cannot hear the line from far away, that they are not properly trained? Put this is terms you can relate to. Say you are judging visual performance or colorguard, and five people stand up right in front of you and block your view during a portion of the show. No amount of "training" enables you to see through them. You simply missed part of the performance you are evaluating. That is the visual equivalent of what can happen when 80 horns, a full pit, amplified speakers or a crowd of 20,000 get between you and a distant battery section you want to hear. As far as making it easier, i do not believe for one second that writer or designers will make it easier , especially for those top lines. Why would they continue to write difficult figures that the judges are not likely to hear? I think it was you who said that demand for the sake of demand is not smart design. Have you changed your stance on that? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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