BRASSO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Judges.... more than ever before in DCI..... will now be judging what musical sound they " like" and " prefer ", not which is " better ". The disparate instrumentations, coupled with the sound machines, producing wholly different sounds now from these Corps, makes it so. So now the judges are essentially judging their personal " likes ", and when it comes to " likes " judges, naturally have vastly differences of opinion on what they like and prefer entering into their ear canal. So, like I said in preseason, fasten our seat belts, as we are in for a roller coaster of a run with our asking of these fine people ( judges ) to now compare, contrast, score and rank wholly and completely dissimilar things. Volatility will increase and consensus will not be reached among the judging community, nor in such an environment, should consensus be reached, imo. Thats because what someone " likes " and " prefers" to hear in music, no matter a person's training and experience, is a personal choice and personal preference entirely. Edited July 7, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 This is a numbers based activity obviously. Has been...always will be. Why is the number important? Who's going to see it? What difference does it make as long as the ranking is correct? All good questions. The numbers are a reflection of the judges' ability to translate what they see and hear into a numeric form within a scale. And all judges need to be on the same page so that they can evaluate corps fairly and effectively. And DCI has a history of not adequately training new judges and then tolerating crazy disparities in numbers from more seasoned judges. Goes back to my original point...inadequate training and lack of accountability. Plain and simple. We can argue lots of other factors...but these two fundamental foundations of any process have to be in place before any of those other factors can even be calculated into the discussion. Sorry...I'll come down off my high horse now...lol. On a scale from 1 to 100, I really don't think it's possible for judges to be consistent and accurate enough across the board to assign consistent values from competition to competition. Seriously, if you were on the field and heard two different corps, would you really be able to say "oh that's totally an 88" and "oh that's definitely a 76"?? I don't think it's possible. All we can ask is that from competition to competition, the judges remain consistent enough that a corps remains in the same ballpark. I don't think Crown's score was THAT far off when you take into account how many different judges judges (5 different scores can easily lead to a 3 point difference if each judge marks a corps just .6 less than what they received at a different competition. Do you realize how minuscule of a difference that is?) Statistically, I think what you're asking judges to do is impossible and I think they're doing a pretty good job of staying in the same ballpark. It's easy to sit on a throne on DCP and hurl stones at judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auldschool Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 On a scale from 1 to 100, I really don't think it's possible for judges to be consistent and accurate enough across the board to assign consistent values from competition to competition. Seriously, if you were on the field and heard two different corps, would you really be able to say "oh that's totally an 88" and "oh that's definitely a 76"?? I don't think it's possible. All we can ask is that from competition to competition, the judges remain consistent enough that a corps remains in the same ballpark. I don't think Crown's score was THAT far off when you take into account how many different judges judges (5 different scores can easily lead to a 3 point difference if each judge marks a corps just .6 less than what they received at a different competition. Do you realize how minuscule of a difference that is?) Statistically, I think what you're asking judges to do is impossible and I think they're doing a pretty good job of staying in the same ballpark. It's easy to sit on a throne on DCP and hurl stones at judges. Hahaha...yes a forum like this is most definitely not for being critical of DCI. So sorry...cause no one ever does that. Gimme a break. Judges CAN give consistent numbers and many of then do..that's their job. That's what's expected of them. That's what they are paid to do. So I don't buy that argument. Staying in the same ballpark is a minimum expecation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Hahaha...yes a forum like this is most definitely not for being critical of DCI. So sorry...cause no one ever does that. Gimme a break. Judges CAN give consistent numbers and many of then do..that's their job. That's what's expected of them. That's what they are paid to do. So I don't buy that argument. Staying in the same ballpark is a minimum expecation. Thanks for your very elaborate and evidence laden response. I am so convinced right now I can't handle it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 People are so enthralled with their fantasy of crown's demise and/or opportunity to engage in their favorite pastime of telling crown fans their corps isn't as good as they think they are that I guess they didn't have time to look at the recap, which shows the huge drop was in one category only and happened to pretty much everyone at the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Hahaha...yes a forum like this is most definitely not for being critical of DCI. So sorry...cause no one ever does that. Gimme a break. Judges CAN give consistent numbers and many of then do..that's their job. That's what's expected of them. That's what they are paid to do. So I don't buy that argument. Staying in the same ballpark is a minimum expecation. In this case it's just bad numbers -- not a matter of consistency. The corps were ranked correctly and spreads weren't unusual. I agree about the lack of training evident. Mid box 4 to mid box 3 is quite a jump in one day :-) Edited July 7, 2016 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Statistically, I think what you're asking judges to do is impossible and I think they're doing a pretty good job of staying in the same ballpark. It's easy to sit on a throne on DCP and hurl stones at judges. I agree. The criticisms of the DCI judging community is mostly unwarranted, imo. There is no evidence that I am aware of that the training of new judges on the part of DCI is somehow " lacking" ". I'm not so sure these complainers of the training of the DCI judges are even aware of what the training is for DCI judges. I certainly am not all that familiar with whether or not there are deficiencies in the current training of the DCI judges, as I don't even know what steps the new judges go thru. But this is the first time I have heard the DCI training program for their new judges is somehow deficient, with people ( as you said ) " throwing stones at the judges ". Has anybody else heard this complaint regarding the inadequacies of the DCI judging training before this week ? I don't recall us discussing this before on DCP, anyway. A judge's " inexperience " does not mean he or she is a good or bad judge. Its like us on a new job. We might not be all that " experienced " at the new place of work, but we could very well be more competent than the person thats been there for decades. Edited July 7, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Just for the record, I obviously don't think Crown is at the same level as the other 2 corps who have a 73.9 (Crown is better) but when 5 different judges are giving scores and especially one of them really differs in opinion (these are subjective, after all), it's easy to see how a drop in score would happen. When you have more than one factor going into a total score, it's a lot easier for small differences in opinion to compound into one big score difference from another night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Just for the record, I obviously don't think Crown is at the same level as the other 2 corps who have a 73.9 (Crown is better) but when 5 different judges are giving scores and especially one of them really differs in opinion (these are subjective, after all), it's easy to see how a drop in score would happen. When you have more than one factor going into a total score, it's a lot easier for small differences in opinion to compound into one big score difference from another night A single judge can really impact a score iif they are on GE. Raw scores contribute right to the total. (Which is the rationale behind 4 GE judges at regionals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 In this case it's just bad numbers -- not a matter of consistency. The corps were ranked correctly and spreads weren't unusual. I agree about the lack of training evident. Mid box 4 to mid box 3 is quite a jump in one day :-) as I was taught waaaay back in the 70's when I was starting to judge, the two most important tasks a judge has to accomplish are to rank the corps in the order of finish and rate them against each other (the spread). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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