Ghost Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Tim K said: Often when I see the corps I saw earlier in the season in August, I appreciate the difficulty because the flaws most likely have been corrected. It is also the case that some corps begin the season with their basic show, get it clean, and tweak and have additions. 29 minutes ago, JKT90 said: I don't know...possibly as they learn more they see more content...? If a block does not change since late June through finals, but the mm march it cleaner, the content should not change, just the achievement. If the judges are finally seeing or hearing better later in the season, even if the content hasn't changed much, we're being conned. Edited July 30, 2017 by Ghost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, xandandl said: Judges notice more as the season progresses and they become more comfortable with what is put before them, even with changes. With the number of years many of the up high judges have judged shows, they should not need eight weeks to get a better read on a corps difficulty I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Ghost said: With the number of years many of the up high judges have judged shows, they should not need eight weeks to get a better read on a corps difficulty I feel. yah, but they only have two ears and two eyes. Some corps are graphing much busier programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, xandandl said: Very good and astute question. Layering and hosing go on simultaneously within the same lines, the faculties building on their strengths and stronger players while diminishing their exposures and simplifying for the less gifted perfomers. Also, judges do not have 100 per cent perfect grasp of everything in a show the first time it is viewed and assessed. Think of the Vanguard, Cavaliers, Cadets, and Bloo as examples of corps with multiples stages of focus needing simultaneous assessment. Judges notice more as the season progresses and they become more comfortable with what is put before them, even with changes. Judges notice more? That doesn't really pass the smell test to me. These judges literally make a, iving dissecting shows,of all shapes and sizes. They can bore even the most astute and entrenched of us in the details of these shows. They pick apart every single aspect of every moment of these programs...and yet I am to believe that after three months of this they are somehow discovering things corps are doing that they didn't see or hear before? Every night? Sorry but that's bs, and we all know it. I don't know what type of communications DCI has with judges regarding their shows. But I would assume that they are providing charts and dot drills for every show throughout the season. If they aren't, why not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 1 minute ago, MikeRapp said: Judges notice more? That doesn't really pass the smell test to me. These judges literally make a, iving dissecting shows,of all shapes and sizes. They can bore even the most astute and entrenched of us in the details of these shows. They pick apart every single aspect of every moment of these programs...and yet I am to believe that after three months of this they are somehow discovering things corps are doing that they didn't see or hear before? Every night? Sorry but that's bs, and we all know it. I don't know what type of communications DCI has with judges regarding their shows. But I would assume that they are providing charts and dot drills for every show throughout the season. If they aren't, why not? Have you ever been a professional judge? The FB you mocked last week of GH saying Zingali yelled at him about their judging at the band show in Piscataway and missing things is an example of what I am citing. With corps making daily adjustments and judges travelling as intensely as corps, all this supposed data isn't always available to the judges pre-show. Like many of your posts, yours is a conclusion fighting towards a premise. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, xandandl said: Have you ever been a professional judge? The FB you mocked last week of GH saying Zingali yelled at him about their judging at the band show in Piscataway and missing things is an example of what I am citing. With corps making daily adjustments and judges travelling as intensely as corps, all this supposed data isn't always available to the judges pre-show. Like many of your posts, yours is a conclusion fighting towards a premise. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding Facebook, Zingali and Hopkins. Why is it that half the time someone starts a conversation about the type of scoring and judging methodologies dci uses, you attack them for being a rube? I don't think I am unaware of how dci works or how corps evolve shows. Many people here have added interesting ideas to this discussion, why can't you just discuss this topic without attacking the people who are discussing it? Edited July 30, 2017 by MikeRapp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREENBLUE Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 I always thought it should be as they do in diving/gymnastics etc.... if you have do so many elements then your content score is a certain number. Your performance gives you your achievement score only. Logistically, I have no clue how that could be pulled off. It is a bit wonky how one night a judge gives an 8.8 in content and the next a different judge gives 9.3 when not a single change or addition was made by the corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Schehr Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Let me add that fans need to realize how judges livelihood is directly related to the scores they give to those who pay the most, through camps, consulting fees, design fees, direct hires and the larger marching band and WGI community. All influence decisions in adjudication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKT90 Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 26 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: I don't even know what you are talking about regarding Facebook, Zingali and Hopkins. Why is it that half the time someone starts a conversation about the type of scoring and judging methodologies dci uses, you attack them for being a rube? I don't think I am unaware of how dci works or how corps evolve shows. Many people here have added interesting ideas to this discussion, why can't you just discuss this topic without attacking the people who are discussing it? G and Z were judging GE. G scored them low but Z scored them high. G missed some visuals completely. Z jumped on him about how he could miss it. G said had he seen it, their content score would have been higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 1 minute ago, GREENBLUE said: I always thought it should be as they do in diving/gymnastics etc.... if you have do so many elements then your content score is a certain number. Your performance gives you your achievement score only. Logistically, I have no clue how that could be pulled off. It is a bit wonky how one night a judge gives an 8.8 in content and the next a different judge gives 9.3 when not a single change or addition was made by the corps. If you adopt a methodology where 100 is a perfect score, you have an inherently problematic scoring system for DCI. Because basically you have to control content scores to prepare for the possibility of over-achieving 100 points, which of course is practically impossible. The previous "tick" system basically scored by adding up achievements throughout a show. This, however, created an environment in which the wining show was nothing more than a series of compulsories. There is no doubt the current system has yielded an environment in which there is a wider range of show ideas, and imho much more compelling performances for the audience. That, ultimately, is the goal of dci, or has become the goal. But content should not be defined by a judge's knowledge of what you are trying to do, imho. Content should be objective, achievement should be subjective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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