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DrumScorps

North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019

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Just now, MikeRapp said:

Yeah I’m not buying it. I don’t misunderstand your premise, but I ain’t agreeing.

Like I said, the test for your premise is to identify examples of your assumption.  Name a group that you could argue was misplaced out of medals at the end solely because of their ratings at the beginning (and it needs to be by a stretch because of what we are talking about... not a 5th place corps that deserved 3rd, but rather an 8th or even a 7th that deserved 3rdish).  If you can't find that example (and there should be several if the premise is true), then the premise has no flesh and blood to it.

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2 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

That's simply not true as I think you mean it.  Reference (which is a predetermined standard) must be used to establish measurement (which is a ruler that I think you are ignoring).  Fine increments only need to be established when that is required by the adjudication.  Most adjudication does not require this at all.  If I fill a glass more than half with water you would only need to verify it's volume if the amount was too close to observe by the eye.  Otherwise, filling a glass 2/3 full only requires the verification of observable amounts to accurately adjudicate that it is indeed more than half full.  The standard of adjudication calls for no further analysis in this case.

Even by your sports analogy, the technological replay of an event is only called for in the rare circumstance of incremental closeness.  The vast majority of plays are made in a game with obviously observable and visually verifiable actions (replay is not used on every play and some cases when it is called for without merit will result in a penalty -loss of time out, etc.).

You are painted into a corner on this.

Also on a previous point, arbitration IS subjective.  That's the point of it.  It is a subjectivity that is contractually accepted by parties involved as a final resolution.

I said the scoring, the scoring, the scoring in baseball is purely objective. If baseball was scored like the marching arts there would be a rubric sheet with 5 boxes, 5 ranges of possible scoring, descriptors in each box, and the score itself would be determined by a judge evaluating the artistic design of how well the base running sashay effect came across in conveying the intensity of the moment when they crossed home plate. (That particular home run with nobody else on base deserves a score of 7 instead of 1 based on the interpritation of the celebratory run around the bases as applied to the rubric!)

While there are subjective human umpire calls in baseball which can be at times erroneous, there are hundreds more lost opportunities in pop flys, stranding a runner on third, swing and miss, et al which contribute to a runner not crossing home plate to score a run. So the little subjectivity which is there really does not impact who wins and who loses.

Name one descriptor on a music arts GE sheet concerning design 'scoring' that is objective like crossing home plate yields a score, that lends itself to a unified directly measurable factual scoring conclusion instead of someone determing a number, and does not need a unified 'interpretation of opinion' in order to have consistent adjudicated scoring. If you can show that objective scoring critera on a GE sheet as fact, I shall relent.

Edited by Stu

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

Like I said, the test for your premise is to identify examples of your assumption.  Name a group that you could argue was misplaced out of medals at the end solely because of their ratings at the beginning (and it needs to be by a stretch because of what we are talking about... not a 5th place corps that deserved 3rd, but rather an 8th or even a 7th that deserved 3rdish).  If you can't find that example (and there should be several if the premise is true), then the premise has no flesh and blood to it.

When asked if officials are biased, two time national college basketball coach of the year responded with a smile:

”Every official knows which team is supposed to win.”

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3 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

When asked if officials are biased, two time national college basketball coach of the year responded with a smile:

”Every official knows which team is supposed to win.”

As a (still) very sad Texas Tech student after this past basketball national championship... that struck a cord 😪

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10 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

Baseball: the team which has most runners rounding the bases to touch home plate wins; objective determination of winner.

 

Uh, no.

Baseball:  Where the SUBJECTIVE judgement of the UMPIRE determines balls/strikes, safe/out, fair/foul, which THEN leads to an objective determination of the winner.  IE, OBJECTIVE criteria for the strikezone doesn't matter, it's not a strike unless the umpire says it is.

+++

It's a silly point, but one which needs to be made in keeping with some of the silly aspects of this tired "subjective-objective" argumentation about drum corps judging, which IMO has the finest and most highly refined SUBJECTIVE judging system of any sport in the world.

Edited by wvu80

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7 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

We should pick this discussion up in private discussion or a new (properly tittled) thread.  Otherwise, this hijacked show thread will be the 'show' that never goes away.

Keep it public.  After the next show, these local show threads disappear no matter what.

Subjectively speaking.  🤣

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7 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

Within the next few years baseball will be calling balls and strikes with computers. 

 

The same baseball that has used wooden bats for the last 150 years?  Not likely.   It's the same reason we can't get the darn judges off the drum corps field.

Tradition !  😎

Edited by wvu80

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

 

Uh, no.

Baseball:  Where the SUBJECTIVE judgement of the UMPIRE determines balls/strikes, safe/out, fair/foul, which THEN leads to an objective determination of the winner.  IE, OBJECTIVE criteria for the strikezone doesn't matter, it's not a strike unless the umpire says it is.

+++

It's a silly point, but one which needs to be made in keeping with some of the silly aspects of this tired "subjective-objective" argumentation about drum corps judging, which IMO has the finest and most highly refined SUBJECTIVE judging system of any sport in the world.

While there are subjective human umpire calls in baseball which can be at times erroneous, there are hundreds more lost opportunities in pop flys, stranding a runner on third, swing and miss, et al which contribute to a runner not crossing home plate to score a run. So the little subjectivity which is there really does not impact who wins and who loses.

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

 

The same baseball that has used wooden bats for the last 150 years?  Not likely.   It's the same reason we can't get the darn judges off the drum corps field.

Tradition !  😎

The judges were taken off the field this year. 

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

 

The same baseball that has used wooden bats for the last 150 years?  Not likely.   It's the same reason we can't get the darn judges off the drum corps field.

Tradition !  😎

they are off the field

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