27Socal Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 7 hours ago, wvu80 said: It all depends on how good the show is and how the corps performs that night. Sorry, wrong! It depends mostly on the judging panel chosen. Based on looking at past show history, that's how it works. At this point in the season, It depends very little on show design or how a corps performs, unless they really have a very bad run, which isn't very likely at finals. Unfortunate, but this is the screwed up judging system we have to suffer through. It needs to be changed. I'd like it to be as you describe, but that's just not reality. When the judging panel for finals is announced this week, there's a very high probability that you can pick who will win finals, just based on who is judging finals. Don't even have to see the actual performances. It's basically pre-determined by who is chosen to judge. It's based on each judge and their point spread between the top 2 or 3 in the last few shows they judged. Once a judge develops an "opinion", they tend not to change it, even in the performance captions, no matter how good a run a corps has. It has very little to do with how many actual errors a corps has in a particular show. Everything is an "opinion" based mostly on past history. I did this in Crown's Einstein year, came within a couple tenths of the final scores and point spread. It picked the winner. Try it and see. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppycock Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, wvu80 said: I think it's disrespectful to the corps members to tell them that after all their work and practice that their effort doesn't matter, it's all about the judges. That’s quite an indictment considering how many members Terri and her husband have supported over decades. And FYI the judges determine the outcome regardless of the MM’s effort. Edited August 3, 2019 by Poppycock 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27Socal Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Cappybara said: I think the judges nailed the visual spread for SCV. I think the GE spread should've been maybe cut in half but they should still be a distant 3rd Agree about the visual. Can't do less actual drill than other corps and not expect to be penalized for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppycock Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Poppycock said: That’s quite an indictment considering how many members Terri and her husband have supported over decades. And FYI the judges determine the outcome regardless of the MM’s effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27Socal Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 3 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: Maybe. But also BK. BK passed 87 on July 26, and they're barely a point higher after last night -- despite visual and GE that is, to my eye, much sharper and potent that it was even in Atlanta. BK has been gathering points by teaspoons. Pretty much the same for Stars. They hit 87 on July 24, and have bounced since, finally popping beyond 87 last night. Teaspoons. Meanwhile, Cadets have been gathering points by the bucketful. 84 on July 24, and 88+ on July 30. Cadets haven't had a judged show since July 30. I'd like to know specifically what's been happening with the Cadets show since the tour came out of Texas. For all the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages on multiple threads devoted to their supposed collapse, they're on a trajectory to score something like 94 tonight. Who's got the insight to explain it? Cadets usually put on a tremendous push in the last 2 weeks. Looks like it's continuing with this management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 3 hours ago, George Dixon said: If they score north of 88/89 today that would be great after weeks of changes they’ve moved nto major cleaning mode which has helped - the field in PA they’ve been practicing on looks like a drill book it has so many sets spray painted on it Re that 7/30 score I thought it was a little high- the show while improved is still a dud Thanks for the insight. If the show is afflicted by a fundamentally weak concept, how far can cleaning take them? 92? 93? What's the ceiling on this show? 3 hours ago, chris ncsu said: No I don't think so lol Yes, of course. It's hyperbole -- a deliberate exaggeration to make a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terri Schehr Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Poppycock said: Bias is and has always been part of the adjudication process. It’s human to have a preference of taste likes and dislikes. For anyone to believe something else is fooling themselves. It’s the game that was chosen by all the DCI member directors to be played and they all understand the risks. I wasn’t even going to distinguish this with a response because not only have I always respected the members more than anyone else in this activity, I was one and my son marched nine seasons. I’m sure my son was aware of the fact that his job as a good member was to march and play his show to the best of his ability. I don’t think he actually worried about scores. And neither do I. Edited August 3, 2019 by Terri Schehr 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimaster Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: Thanks for the insight. If the show is afflicted by a fundamentally weak concept, how far can cleaning take them? 92? 93? What's the ceiling on this show? Yes, of course. It's hyperbole -- a deliberate exaggeration to make a point. If they stay in 9th like at Atlanta, the highest 9th place score every is 90.53 2004 Boston and the highest 7th place score is 94.05 2007 Bluecoats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Minimaster said: If they stay in 9th like at Atlanta, the highest 9th place score every is 90.53 2004 Boston and the highest 7th place score is 94.05 2007 Bluecoats. Thank you, but I guess the real question is, absent improvements to the fundamental design elements, can this show even aspire to 7th place? Is there enough there there to clean it to a 94? Sorry, I guess I'm mystified why a show that has largely been panned is even in this mix. Last year we all remember how Cadets brought an underperforming, but reasonably well-built show into Allentown and simply killed it. They found a way to unleash the horsepower that was available to them in the design of the production. My sense from this crowd all season long is that the 2019 Cadets program has less available horsepower . . . no matter how well the members perform it. The current standings, however, would appear to put the lie to that diagnosis. Have we all been wrong about the underlying quality of the show? Edited August 3, 2019 by 2muchcoffeeman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 50 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: Thanks for the insight. If the show is afflicted by a fundamentally weak concept, how far can cleaning take them? 92? 93? What's the ceiling on this show? Yes, of course. It's hyperbole -- a deliberate exaggeration to make a point. I am thinking 89-92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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