What If: Madison Scouts in the Top 8

[EuphMMXI]

I don't understand why some folks have such a big problem with the TOC, but had no problem with Murfreesboro the past few years?

Participation in Murfreesboro has been limited (to the exclusion of others) to the current top 8 drum corps. Participation in the TOC is limited (to the exclusion of others) in the top 8 drum corps based on finals placement from the previous year.

Both are DCI events, both limit participation to 8 corps, both exclude those not in the top 8. The only difference is the DATE the top 8 corps was determined.

The TOC events may have been brought about by the G7 corps, but they are indeed DCI events, approved by the CURRENT DCI Board of Directors...which I believe does NOT include any of the G7.

Thus my point that if Madison were to refuse to participate next year (if in the top 8) they actually would be going a step further as "rebels" than did any of the G7 corps...actually REFUSING to participate in DCI shows?

I don't think any of us know what impact, FOR THE GOOD of ALL DCI corps, the TOC events may have. If the feeling at the end of the summer is that it was a positive venture, benefiting the activity as a whole, then I would assume DCI will want to continue holding them.

I would also assume that the leadership of the Scouts would want to participate and support any events that were deemed to be for the GOOD of the entire activity.

I agree.

And as harsh as this may sound, dont the top corps create the foundation for DCI? As bad as it is, many people only support the top corps (proof is show attendance).

[BigBadMadMan]

I don't understand why some folks have such a big problem with the TOC, but had no problem with Murfreesboro the past few years?

Participation in Murfreesboro has been limited (to the exclusion of others) to the current top 8 drum corps. Participation in the TOC is limited (to the exclusion of others) in the top 8 drum corps based on finals placement from the previous year.

Both are DCI events, both limit participation to 8 corps, both exclude those not in the top 8. The only difference is the DATE the top 8 corps was determined.

The TOC events may have been brought about by the G7 corps, but they are indeed DCI events, approved by the CURRENT DCI Board of Directors...which I believe does NOT include any of the G7.

Thus my point that if Madison were to refuse to participate next year (if in the top 8) they actually would be going a step further as "rebels" than did any of the G7 corps...actually REFUSING to participate in DCI shows?

I don't think any of us know what impact, FOR THE GOOD of ALL DCI corps, the TOC events may have. If the feeling at the end of the summer is that it was a positive venture, benefiting the activity as a whole, then I would assume DCI will want to continue holding them.

I would also assume that the leadership of the Scouts would want to participate and support any events that were deemed to be for the GOOD of the entire activity.

This is justification and rationalization, rather than a look at the hard facts. Murfreesboro was ONE show. And based upon the CURRENT season. Every corps still started the season with a clean slate. There's a sizable difference there. Also, this comes on the backs of the G7 fiasco, which paints it in an even more sinister light.

Edited July 1, 2011 by BigBadMadMan

[oldbandguy]

This is justification and rationalization, rather than a look at the hard facts. Murfreesboro was ONE show. And based upon the CURRENT season. Every corps still started the season with a clean slate. There's a sizable difference there. Also, this comes on the backs of the G7 fiasco, which paints it in an even more sinister light.

I do appreciate your support of the Scouts, but I really think you are the one attempting to justify your feelings of the TOC being the "sinister G7." You do not seem to accept the FACT that the TOC events are indeed DCI events...NOT G7.

Yes, the G7 may have been the group of corps that got the ball rolling, but it was DCI...with THE APPROVAL of the non-G7 corps that actually created these shows. If the 9-23 corps had sounded a resounding NO...there would be no TOC in 2011.

[soccerguy315]

I don't understand why some folks have such a big problem with the TOC, but had no problem with Murfreesboro the past few years?

Participation in Murfreesboro has been limited (to the exclusion of others) to the current top 8 drum corps. Participation in the TOC is limited (to the exclusion of others) in the top 8 drum corps based on finals placement from the previous year.

Both are DCI events, both limit participation to 8 corps, both exclude those not in the top 8. The only difference is the DATE the top 8 corps was determined.

The TOC events may have been brought about by the G7 corps, but they are indeed DCI events, approved by the CURRENT DCI Board of Directors...which I believe does NOT include any of the G7.

Thus my point that if Madison were to refuse to participate next year (if in the top 8) they actually would be going a step further as "rebels" than did any of the G7 corps...actually REFUSING to participate in DCI shows?

I don't think any of us know what impact, FOR THE GOOD of ALL DCI corps, the TOC events may have. If the feeling at the end of the summer is that it was a positive venture, benefiting the activity as a whole, then I would assume DCI will want to continue holding them.

I would also assume that the leadership of the Scouts would want to participate and support any events that were deemed to be for the GOOD of the entire activity.

Because MurfBoro was based on the current season, and was one show. From the very beginning of the 2011 season, 8 corps were slotted in the first 8 spots. There is no other way to look at it.

Furthermore, people are angry at the TOC because it was started by the G7. And the G7 proposed to kill off open class and remove voting power from the non G7 drum corps.

[N.E. Brigand]

And as harsh as this may sound, don't the top corps create the foundation for DCI? As bad as it is, many people only support the top corps (proof is show attendance).

While there is certainly a correlation between placement and fan support, it is not absolute. And the definition of "top corps" isn't completely firm, either. When the G7 organized, one of their number had just placed 9th. If the TOC were based on average placement over the previous ten years, 2001-2010, or previous five years, 2006-2010, Boston Crusaders would have been included (in the second instance with Blue Stars in the 10th position, behind Blue Knights).

[N.E. Brigand]

I do appreciate your support of the Scouts, but I really think you are the one attempting to justify your feelings of the TOC being the "sinister G7." You do not seem to accept the FACT that the TOC events are indeed DCI events... NOT G7.

Your use of scare quotes suggests you don't find it sinister that seven corps attempted to disenfranchise the others.

[BigBadMadMan]

I do appreciate your support of the Scouts, but I really think you are the one attempting to justify your feelings of the TOC being the "sinister G7." You do not seem to accept the FACT that the TOC events are indeed DCI events...NOT G7.

Yes, the G7 may have been the group of corps that got the ball rolling, but it was DCI...with THE APPROVAL of the non-G7 corps that actually created these shows. If the 9-23 corps had sounded a resounding NO...there would be no TOC in 2011.

Not justification when I'm stating what we know as fact.

Fact: Previously Murfreesboro was based on CURRENT year performance, which allowed you not to be punished for what happened last year, but to start fresh each season with fresh shot to make the show. No different than making semis or finals.

Fact: This idea was born out of the G7 backdoor dealings and was proposed with the INTENT of commandeering votes and a larger share of the revenue. Unless one would call having a series of shows including only the Top 8 corps based on previous year(s) placement fair.

The truth of the matter is that it's entirely UNFAIR to remove the opportunity to compete from all but the precious 8 based upon what they did last year. It takes away the sense of a level playing field and the sport of fair competition and puts everyone else at a disadvantage. It's not only unfair to the non-G8 corps who work hard to put a program onthe field, but also to the kids who march in those corps who work just as hard as anyone else.

But then again, if the intent is to take money and exposure away from those corps to line your own pockets because you continuously operate in the red and want to sacrifice the rest of the activity in a step-on-your-brother's-neck sort of way so you can stay afloat, then they're doing a wonderful job.

[Luke S.]

I agree.

And as harsh as this may sound, dont the top corps create the foundation for DCI? As bad as it is, many people only support the top corps (proof is show attendance).

I think Drums on Parade has and will alaways bring a bigger crowd, than NightBeat. Even when Crown is 2nd and Madison is 15th.

[oldbandguy]

Not justification when I'm stating what we know as fact.

Fact: Previously Murfreesboro was based on CURRENT year performance, which allowed you not to be punished for what happened last year, but to start fresh each season with fresh shot to make the show. No different than making semis or finals.

Fact: This idea was born out of the G7 backdoor dealings and was proposed with the INTENT of commandeering votes and a larger share of the revenue. Unless one would call having a series of shows including only the Top 8 corps based on previous year(s) placement fair.

The truth of the matter is that it's entirely UNFAIR to remove the opportunity to compete from all but the precious 8 based upon what they did last year. It takes away the sense of a level playing field and the sport of fair competition and puts everyone else at a disadvantage. It's not only unfair to the non-G8 corps who work hard to put a program onthe field, but also to the kids who march in those corps who work just as hard as anyone else.

But then again, if the intent is to take money and exposure away from those corps to line your own pockets because you continuously operate in the red and want to sacrifice the rest of the activity in a step-on-your-brother's-neck sort of way so you can stay afloat, then they're doing a wonderful job.

Thanks for making my point...EVERY CORPS has fair shot at making semi finals, a fair shot at making finals...and thus a fair shot at making the top 8. No corps is being denied their chance to make it into the top 8. The REWARD just happens to come the following season.

Rewards the following season has ALWAYS been part of DCI's history. The higher you placed the PREVIOUS year, the later you get to perform in shows the following year. At one time, the higher you placed in the PREVIOUS year, the more appearance money you would make the following year.

When YOU marched in the Scouts, the amount of money they would be paid the following year was determined by your placement the previous year. The Scouts OFTEN benefited from placing in the top 6 and making more appearance money than did the corps that finished out of the top 6, the top 12, etc. What's the difference with the top 8 being rewarded now?

There are rewards that come with placing higher. TOC is now one of those rewards.

Edited July 2, 2011 by oldbandguy

[Stryfe]

This thread and all threads like it hinge on a central question: is ToC good/fair? I think there are decent points to be made to both sides.

But I do know that no amount of bickering on DCP is going to change the fact that Mason, Komnick, and Petersen are going to make that choice when it comes, and if it comes. Getting worked up about "TOC WILL BE AROUND NEXT YEAR I KNOW IT" and/or "I'M SURE I KNOW WHAT DECISION THEY'LL MAKE" is pointless. I know that, if ToC is around, they'll make the best choice. Hell, they'll make the best choice even if ToC isn't around.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Stryfe