What does BDs’ victory really mean?

[fsubone]

Can we all just accept that everyone has different tastes? yes, some people are going to like BD's show no matter what they do, and some people will hate their shows no matter what they do. They could go out and do a full read of Channel One Suite, and Legend of the One-Eyed Sailor, and people would still complain. They could call in Jeff Sacktig for a year, and people would complain. (Could you imagine that match-up though?) Yes, some people are jealous that BD wins or does well pretty much every year, even without gaining the "audience favorite" position, but that really doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest.

At the end of the day, as objective as we all claim to be, we all have favorites, and corps we don't care for. That's just the way this activity is. Trying to trash someone else's opinion because they like or don't like a corps though is childish. If people on here could think before they post and be a bit more respectful, things would work so much smoother on here.

The Blue Devils are going to do what they do, every year, and be successful at it. They are the most consistent corps out there. They've been in the Top 5 every year since 1975, that's a streak that may never be broken. Even if you hate everything they do, you have to admire that stat right there. They have been in the Top 5 every year for almost 40 years. Because they have a system to go out every year, every day, every rehearsal, and try and make it better than the one before it. They should be applauded for that mind-set. Yes, sometimes the hunt for perfection comes at the expense of standing ovations and thrown babies, but if your'e goal is to be perfect, then that's what they're going for. There were 35 corps that competed at prelims this year. Even if you didn't like the Blue Devils, there has to have at least been one corps there that made you stand up and scream and cheer.

What does their victory mean for DCI? That they had the best product on there according to the current judging system, and they were rewarded as such. Would I have liked to have seen Crown win? Sure, but they would have had to be better than the Blue Devils, and put out a better scoring product. And they didn't, so the judging system works, since the best, highest scoring corps won on Saturday night.

[flammaster]

^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Pete Freedman]

Actually, I disagree. I mean, I agree with nearly all of what you are saying; they are fine points in and of themselves, but these points aren't really a response to the points being debated. Here's my crude summary of these topics (i.e. what they have evolved into):

1. Are the Blue Devils less popular than the other top corps? Is there even a detectable resentment of the Blue Devils by the fans?

2. If so, is this because of show designs that lack audience appeal, or because of a compromised visual program (my input), or because people love to hate that which is successful? Or why else?

3. Is it ok with you that BD is less popular or even resented by fans?

There have been many other questions but these are for me the ones that stand out as key.

All these questions have had different answers by different people. Your points (fsubone) are valid and a good addition, but they are not a response to the criticisms of BD that people are making here because they don't declare a view on these topics. You say "Can we all just accept that everyone has different tastes?" But that is not the point. The point is whether more people have a distaste for the Blue Devils than the other top (say) 6 corps. And why. And whether it's ok.

I would like to add another concern people may have about BD that hasn't been suggested. Is their seemingly relentless drive to win bad for kids? Is that perhaps a percolating issue under the surface here. I watched some of the BD360 videos on their iphone app, and was surprised by how the kids seemed to talk more about winning than about playing well. I heard quotes like, "we're gonna go big tonight", "we're gonna be monsters", "we're gonna tear it up", which seems to support the notion that they are victory-driven (granted, they are choosing the content of these videos, so it's highly unscientific). Personally I'm fine with this attitude as long as it's not every corps. After all, every sports team tries to have the same attitude. Anyway it hasn't been brought up yet here so I thought I'd throw it in.

Edit: I just re-read the quotes at the end and realized that they do not mention winning specifically. I guess I meant intensely competitive as opposed to winning per se. Still, are quotes from other corps different?

Edited September 6, 2012 by Pete Freedman

[fsubone]

Hello Peter,

Let me see what I can do to answer your questions about my post.

Being from California, I'm knee-deep in BD country, so no, I don't see them as less popular than any other corps. Usually at the shows I go to, their souvie stand is mobbed with people before, during, and after the show. So less popular may actually be a regional thing, as much as I don't like making Plan9 right. (even though he knows I'm not serious) Yes, their shows aren't tops on the thrown baby meter, but to say that they are less popular than say Santa Clara or Phantom of Bluecoats isn't quite the most accurate yard-stick. In recent years, you could make the argument that they have been losing fans because of their show direction, but at the end of the day, people clapping for you doesn't always equal winning, or equal money in the pocket of the corps. Yes, if you're the fan favorite, more people are likely to buy your shirts and souvies, but their current show design doesn't seem to be slowing down BD"s cash flow at all. And at the end of the day, we all want corps to survive. Their System Blue equipment and camps are huge sources of cash flow for them, and are really helping keep them solvent.

yes, part of it is because there are always going to be people who bag on the corps on top. There were people who outright hated Phantom 2008 because they thought they didn't deserve to be on top, but they would have been fine with the show if it hadn't won. But I feel a lot of the audience disconnect we've seen is because of their show designs. At least to me, it's their visual program that I don't like. Their musical selections are top-notch, but I don't like their visual ideas. But I'm not a judge for a reason, because I probably couldn't be objective about it. And at the end of the day, the judges are the ones making the decisions, not us. As much as people say they want an "audience pick" for shows, I think that would really remove any kind of legitimacy the judging community has.

It doesn't actually bother me that BD isn't the most popular corps out there. Yes, it could just be because I'm from a rival corps and competed against them, but I believe it's because there are other corps out there that I like more. When you have 30~ corps that compete at prelims, there is always going to be a corps that is people's favorite, and some that aren't. And that will be different for every single person in the stands. Yes, BD will be the outright favorite for some people, and it will be last on the list for other people. It's just the way drum corps people and their tastes go. I don't like the shows that the Mandarins put out. I just don't, they never connect with me. But I'm not going to bash them for it, because I'm sure someone out there loves them, or else they wouldn't exist.

So, yes, it's perfectly fine for people to have a distaste for BD, the same way it's fine for someone else to have a distaste for the Cadets, or Crown, or Pioneer. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I wish all fans would act with a bit more class on here, but I can't control what other people post, I can just make sure that my posts are the best I can write.

I don't think it's the best for a corps to only go out with the sole intention of winning, I think you miss most of the experience, but this is a competition. None of us would do this activity if we weren't competitive. And some people are only attracted to winners, and consider anything less than first to be a failure. I've seen it in band students, math students, everyone. Life is a competition, and everyone strives to be the best. No one signs up for a drum corps, and says, "Geez, I hope we're mediocre this year." No, everyone wants to do their best, whether it's making semis, or making finals, or the TOC, or medaling, or winning. Everyone has their different goals. Pretty much every corps tries to break up to that next level, and when you're consistently medaling, winning is the only "next level" you can get to. I do wish that they would see second place as an accomplishment, not a failure, but I'm not in charge of their corps. yes, drum corps is all about the experience, and the friendships, and the memories, and the entertainment, but at the end of the day, it is still a competition. We're not pee-wee soccer, where score isn't kept, and everyone gets a trophy and a juice box at the end of the day. it's about the medal and the trophy and the scores. Anyone that tells you that it isn't about the scores isn't being honest.

That's just my read on the BD situation. They are who they are, that's it. They do exactly what they do year in and year out, and produce shows that draw kids to them, and that's fine. I would rather they produce shows that appeal to some people, but not all and survive than anything else. I often wonder if BD would get the same amount of kids if they didn't have 15 championships, and I'm not sure if they'd be as secure as they are. I want corps to survive, and if doing everything they do is how they survive, more power to them. Even if you're not a fan of their shows, you have to admire their consistency, and the level of performance you get from them every night. They are the most consistent corps in DCI, and until someone else figures out their own system to top the Blue Devils, they will continue racking up medals and titles. it's as simple as that, until someone else steps up their game, it's BD's year to lose year after year.

[fsubone]

^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks. I've just been getting very philosophical about this whole drum corps thing now that I'm aged-out, I'm looking at things from a different angle than as a competitor and marching member. Doesn't mean I'm now a BD fan, but I understand why they do what they do.

[Pete Freedman]

Great post.

You confirmed most of the reasons I cited for BD's popularity problem, and added two more.

The list so far:

1. Inaccessible show design

2. Limited visual design

3. Jealousy (i.e. because they win)

4. Overly aggressive winning attitude

5. Money

6. Regional loyalty

You seem to agree with 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Any more, anyone? Maybe people can deal with BD better if we get all the reasons out there. Some can be debunked, too.

I don't believe the last two were mentioned before. Look how the money issue hammered Star's popularity. Is it possible BD is viewed like star, only less so? The Cadets were always the 'shoestring corps' even recently moving yet again to follow the money. But we always heard about Blue Devil Bingo and now the other financial sources you mentioned. There may be some money jealousy involved here.

As far as regional loyalty goes, I suspect the east still has the most drum corps fans, and of course, the 'thousand corps in the east' couldn't win a DCI final for more than a decade after it's founding. Having so many drum corps meant the talent pool was divided - at least that was the conventional interpretation (excuse?) in the east. I can tell you personally: this was a bitter pill. That's why you can hear them shouting "East, east" when Garfield won in 83. And 82 for that matter. And for whatever corps from the east had the best shot at any given time.

Note that all of these reasons (save the first two) are either downright silly or aren't a reason to blame the corps itself. I suppose each reason could be it's own thread :-)

Regarding the OP's post, I think I agree with those who say that the weirdness of this year's show in particular doesn't say anything about the future of drum corps (at least, not anything bad).

[Plan9]

Great post.

You confirmed most of the reasons I cited for BD's popularity problem, and added two more.

The list so far:

1. Inaccessible show design

2. Limited visual design

3. Jealousy (i.e. because they win)

4. Overly aggressive winning attitude

5. Money

6. Regional loyalty

You seem to agree with 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Any more, anyone? Maybe people can deal with BD better if we get all the reasons out there. Some can be debunked, too.

I don't believe the last two were mentioned before. Look how the money issue hammered Star's popularity. Is it possible BD is viewed like star, only less so? The Cadets were always the 'shoestring corps' even recently moving yet again to follow the money. But we always heard about Blue Devil Bingo and now the other financial sources you mentioned. There may be some money jealousy involved here.

As far as regional loyalty goes, I suspect the east still has the most drum corps fans, and of course, the 'thousand corps in the east' couldn't win a DCI final for more than a decade after it's founding. Having so many drum corps meant the talent pool was divided - at least that was the conventional interpretation (excuse?) in the east. I can tell you personally: this was a bitter pill. That's why you can hear them shouting "East, east" when Garfield won in 83. And 82 for that matter. And for whatever corps from the east had the best shot at any given time.

Note that all of these reasons (save the first two) are either downright silly or aren't a reason to blame the corps itself. I suppose each reason could be it's own thread :-)

Regarding the OP's post, I think I agree with those who say that the weirdness of this year's show in particular doesn't say anything about the future of drum corps (at least, not anything bad).

I despise long posts....but indulge me!

Let me first say to you and my friend Bone that THIS thread is why I come back here to DCP year after year. You both, Brasso and others inspire me with your openminded and honest discussion. And I will add that the depth of the "What's with BD?" analysis here lies at the heart of the activity and its benefits and life molding experiences that are at its center. And.....thoughtful expression is how we understand each other...not by flinging insults at the corps through the chain link fence of DCP anonymity.

Now....the list (all IMO of course, and "fact" as I see it.....I also added one):

1. Inaccessible show design - access is a two way street and #'s 3-7 play a role in that. So..as you sit in the stands watching your team get the #### kicked out of em' (particularly if you are a local, alum or a parent) you fold your arms and rationalize why. It's not a pleasant experience. Often it's at the expense of the victor (or the coach of your team), but it's all rationalization. The other component to #1 here is the lasting and measurable love of DC past that moves so many to come back to it as fans. So when a corps departs the rails and explores new ways of presentation....some fans fold there arms, and wheel goes round and round.

2. Limited visual design - odd title...in fact, of all the descriptions of Scott Chandler, et at's designs...the one word I would never apply is "limited". Difficult to follow, you bet, free-form...most definitely not! Since 08, their across the field precision placement (individual and group), multiple focal points and deeply difficult marching designs are often so complex, that only the keen eye (wide open and unclouded) can follow it. That may work against them and may explain #1 in some ways. But it's hard to master and the judges (who are open eyed and unclouded)...know it. And, I might add, it ain't just playing to the sheets (or being clean)...it's having a unique design to work with, then working it to perfection!

3. Jealousy (i.e. because they win) - this is tied to my new #7, and it's palpable. It's our nature in a completive activity..and not particularly unhealthy. But it can be deflating to homers of other corps and to a population of fans that wish for different winners. I can only quote Bone on this: "They are the most consistent corps in DCI, and until someone else figures out their own system to top the Blue Devils, they will continue racking up medals and titles. it's as simple as that, until someone else steps up their game, it's BD's year to lose year after year." This.

4. Overly aggressive winning attitude - Well, I can speak with some experience on this one, having spent several years up close and personal as an MM parent and supporter. My RV filled with Blue Devils, post-performance/rehearsal, and home to several victory parties. In short, "winning" is a byproduct of being a Blue Devil... their work ethos is one of unity of purpose, unlimited boundaries, demand of themselves and by extension...each other, expectation of quality and love of the art (and each other). What follows... are outcomes. That isn't aggression and winning isn't even a goal....its a belief in themselves and their staff. Yes, there are few from time to time that carry it beyond swagger, but the vets normally whisper in their ear and that's all it takes. One final note on this to Pete Freeman: The Blue Devils experience (your words, not mine "drive to win") is most definitely NOT "bad for the kids". I can tell you a story some time (in a PM) about 08 that became a personal lesson for me, but suffice to say, they value the experience and use it in their life, like all MM's (Champions or not) should do.

5. Money - The organization is smart and... well....organized. They have fans all over the world and leverage that to support their organization. They have momentum, they get some of the best performers to "voluntarily" FLY across the country (at great personal expense) to be part of the BD experience. All corps should look to the BD organization as a model of how to make it work...and I will add that the BD leadership has always been generous to offer its model to others...if they are open to it.

6. Regional loyalty - It is what it is. Its part of the American competitive nature and it's a beautiful thing. I just wish that Finals would come to CA again so that the DCI world could see how much they love their corps (all of them)....and Finals 07 attendance speaks for itself.

7. ABBD - I'm out of gas. But this is real and isn't about to change, until BD is out of the medals for a few years......period. For more, see #3 and #6 (with a splash of #1 & #2).

Finally.....if you want to see a "new" champion....beat em' ($1 to Bone).

Edited September 7, 2012 by Plan9

[Jeff Ream]

I'm gonna go on record and say #'s 1 and 2 are the biggest issues. if the shows were more accessible, and their visual product was more like, well,everyone else, and they won.....far less complaints.

[Plan9]

double post...uggh!

Edited September 7, 2012 by Plan9

[cowtown]

I don’t buy 2 or 7 as part of BD popularity problem at all…more people love a winner than are jealous of a winner. People love to compare BD to Yankees and sure, Boston fans may hate the Yankees but the Yankees are by far the most popular team in baseball and usually have several of the top selling jerseys

At best, 2 and 7 are a few outliers that really shouldn’t have a significant impact on overall, year to year popularity