Members have changed so why not the activity

[HockeyDad]

Before I answer your question, and I promise that will, would you please answer me this first: Pianos do have stings, that is true; but the manner in which the strings produce sound makes it, by definition, a percussion instrument. Would you agree with that premise?

You never answered.

[Mello Dude]

The writing is on the wall, now so more than ever with Houston moving to the American League to even out the number of teams in both leagues. With that in mind, there is now at least one interleague game being played on any given day of a season. Sooner or later, the relevance of playing the same game by different rules in the same league on a daily basis will reach a point where enough folks will decide there is no longer a reason why NOT to change.

Yes the American League is the easy button. Got it.

[Stu]

You never answered.

No need for me to answer 'yet'. The response from my posting to HornTeacher came from BigW not HornTeacher. I promise that I will answer after I get a direct response from HornTeacher.

[seen-it-all]

nvm

Edited March 2, 2014 by seen-it-all

[BRASSO]

There once was an activity which consisted of 9 players playing the field on defense, and the same 9 players placed on an offense: such activity was called "Baseball." However, at a point in time, an offensive position was added, which was called the "designated hitter", who would bat in place of one defensive position.

I don't recall a name change to the activity resulting from this action.

What if.. in your scenario here however.. MLB dropped the use of the baseball, and instead decided to use the softball in its place. Would this still be the game of " baseball " in your view and still appropriate to use the nomenclature that a game used with a thrown softball is still a " baseball " game ? Just asking here, mind you. So would it ?

[funkjazzaxe]

I believe it is in the eye of the beholder whether drum and bugle corps is a "sport" or "art"... it can be seen as both. The comparison to figure skating is a really interesting comparison, because they are both very similar in many ways. Both have a lot of artistic merit, but the movement is highly rehearsed and requires a great degree of athletic execution. Getting back to the topic of "members changing/activity changing" my argument is that, like sports, drum corps would and will continue to evolve if left to the basic rules and tools that originally defined it. It is human nature to push the limits, refine training methods, become faster/stronger/etc. Look at figure skating. It is MUCH different now than 50 years ago- look at the amazing technical stuff they do now. They have gotten more athletic- can jump much higher, move faster, etc. Costumes have become refined to be more conducive to the techincal requirements and increased athleticsm the sport requires now. BUT... at the same time the basic game hasn't changed. It is still people on the ice with skates, same as it was 50 years ago. There is no need to throw in a bunch of stuff in the name of "evolution" for it to evolve- if they did it would be something entirely different and loose what makes it "it". If figure skating adopted the philosophy of current DCI, they would allow special springs in skates so they could jump higher, allow other sport elements to be included (rings/soccer balls/hockey fights) as part of the show, etc.

Its been said numerous times (in argument for making drum corps into anything goes marching band-type thing) that what is important is the players, not the instruments they play. I agree- so why the need to pollute something as pure and unique as what drum & bugle used to be with band instruments/synths/amps/etc? The performers would continue to push the activity into new realms if they remained real drum & bugle corps. Current members are evolving- they are better than ever! I argue that if left with the basic elements of the game (no synths/amps/band instruments) the shows would be more unique and creative now. Remember the SCV show "Miss Saigon" with all the cool pit effects for helicopter sounds, etc? Now they'd just hit a button on a synth. How has that made it more better and more entertaining?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, right?

[GUARDLING]

I believe it is in the eye of the beholder whether drum and bugle corps is a "sport" or "art"... it can be seen as both. The comparison to figure skating is a really interesting comparison, because they are both very similar in many ways. Both have a lot of artistic merit, but the movement is highly rehearsed and requires a great degree of athletic execution. Getting back to the topic of "members changing/activity changing" my argument is that, like sports, drum corps would and will continue to evolve if left to the basic rules and tools that originally defined it. It is human nature to push the limits, refine training methods, become faster/stronger/etc. Look at figure skating. It is MUCH different now than 50 years ago- look at the amazing technical stuff they do now. They have gotten more athletic- can jump much higher, move faster, etc. Costumes have become refined to be more conducive to the techincal requirements and increased athleticsm the sport requires now. BUT... at the same time the basic game hasn't changed. It is still people on the ice with skates, same as it was 50 years ago. There is no need to throw in a bunch of stuff in the name of "evolution" for it to evolve- if they did it would be something entirely different and loose what makes it "it". If figure skating adopted the philosophy of current DCI, they would allow special springs in skates so they could jump higher, allow other sport elements to be included (rings/soccer balls/hockey fights) as part of the show, etc.

Its been said numerous times (in argument for making drum corps into anything goes marching band-type thing) that what is important is the players, not the instruments they play. I agree- so why the need to pollute something as pure and unique as what drum & bugle used to be with band instruments/synths/amps/etc? The performers would continue to push the activity into new realms if they remained real drum & bugle corps. Current members are evolving- they are better than ever! I argue that if left with the basic elements of the game (no synths/amps/band instruments) the shows would be more unique and creative now. Remember the SCV show "Miss Saigon" with all the cool pit effects for helicopter sounds, etc? Now they'd just hit a button on a synth. How has that made it more better and more entertaining?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, right?

so..like in Miss Saigon you dont mind all the extra bells and whistles you just want a kid to bang it out on a tire rim or crank up some sound on some other object...hmmmmm..ok..also what some call pollute others may call progress...its all in the slant one wants to take I guess....................I posted this earlier in the thread BUT being we seem to always go back to the same type of statement I thought it mught be worth posting again........JMO it was about being bands now BUT the same argument about what we are or arent today

but a bigger question is WHY do things need to stay the same....if something worked in the past who says it has to be that way now...people always go back to core beliefs...well who says those beliefs cant or wont change and why do people need to live under an archaic belief IF times and needs have changed. BECAUSE THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US SAID SO? hmmmmm if that were the case even our country wouldnt be a free country and still under anothers rule and drum corps would still be under the thumb of the pre DCI regulations...............as far as the band thing Im from BITD and ALWAYS corrected those who called us a band. BUT i have learned we were no different..who cares whats being played or done, its exactly what we were. We didnt like the comparison because we felt we were oh so superior and maybe in the past we were. Seems like a silly argument and only serious to those who still take offence to something even silly bitd...........it's an argument that goes round and round ..over and over...maybe for all time....like one generation thing to another....will never change BUT it's not going back EVER , at least the way it was...how can it?.....so maybe an argument where maybe some change can actually happen should take the place rather than those arguments that cant.................I suppose though that maybe cant happen either..............I really believe in most things that if people looked at the things that are similar and that bring everyone together instead of the differences that there would be a happier, more supportive , and more unified activity,....There IMO is way more the same that we all share than differeces...isnt it time to share the activity with respect of the past and support of the future and realise neither OWN the activity..we only maintain it while we are involved.....there's so many reasons why the activity could have totally gone away..like many things from the past...isnt that alone a testement to those who maintained it to this point and to those who struggle to maintain something that could have easily been just a memory.....jmo

Edited March 3, 2014 by GUARDLING

[funkjazzaxe]

Good discussion- as far as live Foley sound (i.e.; Miss Saigon SCV, etc) then, yes, I strongly prefer it "done live". To me, it is much more entertaining and exciting. Organic live sound done in front of my eyes will always trump a machine made sound triggered by a button push. Always. In the drum corps context, it was a defining element of the activity. It was all human powered. Add in amps to add volume or interesting sounds and I immediately loose interest. I can go to Guitar Center and get a rack of power amps and an ipad with lots of plugins and blow the audience out their seats. Big deal- anyone can do that. But is it progress? Why did it have to resort to this? Do most people prefer this? Do most current members like the fact that drum corps is heading in this direction? I was on the executive board of a world class corps until recently- I don't know any of those kids who wanted it to become simply a really good version of their school marching band. I'm not that old and marched drum corps fairly recently, just prior to the "big" changes of amps and stuff. I don't know one person who would have wanted any of this "evolution"... drum corps was already evolving and every year corps were pushing the envelope in new and innovative ways. No need for electronics/trombones/etc, the activity was already evolving.

As already mentioned, other sports and arts continue to evolve in their defined form. The performers/players themselves evolve and thus the activity remains fresh and interesting while still remaining true "what it is" thus continuing to connect with their past.

Drum & Bugle Corps differed from marching band in look and sound, much of this stemmed from the unique instrumentation. It's in the very name of what it is! Unfortunately that sound and all-human powered amazement is done now. I can still go hear a chamber orchestra same as hundreds of years ago, can still go get my face peeled off by a killer big band, and still go hear a rock band playing classic stuff through a dimed old Marshall JCM800, but I can't go get that "sound" of a 70+ member horn line on G's pinned WFO (Wide Friggin' Open) anymore, sadly.

The "sound" is what I, and I feel lots of others, miss. I am all for corps evolving and doing whatever they felt... march 100 snare drums, march a whole hornline of contras (tubas- meh) and play a whole show searching for the elusive "brown note", do a whole show on the music of Frank Zappa- whatever! But bring back that SOUND and put the power back in the lungs/hands of the kids and not in the machines. Evolution doesn't have to mean throwing everything away that made it unique.

Edited March 3, 2014 by funkjazzaxe

[Stu]

I believe it is in the eye of the beholder whether drum and bugle corps is a "sport" or "art"... it can be seen as both. The comparison to figure skating is a really interesting comparison, because they are both very similar in many ways. Both have a lot of artistic merit, but the movement is highly rehearsed and requires a great degree of athletic execution. Getting back to the topic of "members changing/activity changing" my argument is that, like sports, drum corps would and will continue to evolve if left to the basic rules and tools that originally defined it. It is human nature to push the limits, refine training methods, become faster/stronger/etc. Look at figure skating. It is MUCH different now than 50 years ago- look at the amazing technical stuff they do now. They have gotten more athletic- can jump much higher, move faster, etc. Costumes have become refined to be more conducive to the techincal requirements and increased athleticsm the sport requires now. BUT... at the same time the basic game hasn't changed. It is still people on the ice with skates, same as it was 50 years ago. There is no need to throw in a bunch of stuff in the name of "evolution" for it to evolve- if they did it would be something entirely different and loose what makes it "it". If figure skating adopted the philosophy of current DCI, they would allow special springs in skates so they could jump higher, allow other sport elements to be included (rings/soccer balls/hockey fights) as part of the show, etc.

Its been said numerous times (in argument for making drum corps into anything goes marching band-type thing) that what is important is the players, not the instruments they play. I agree- so why the need to pollute something as pure and unique as what drum & bugle used to be with band instruments/synths/amps/etc? The performers would continue to push the activity into new realms if they remained real drum & bugle corps. Current members are evolving- they are better than ever! I argue that if left with the basic elements of the game (no synths/amps/band instruments) the shows would be more unique and creative now. Remember the SCV show "Miss Saigon" with all the cool pit effects for helicopter sounds, etc? Now they'd just hit a button on a synth. How has that made it more better and more entertaining?

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, right?

Odd how you stated in the first sentence of your posting that what makes up the various elements that define a drum corps, "... is in the eye of beholder...", but then proceeded to post a diatribe which supports the exact opposite position.

[Stu]

Drum & Bugle Corps differed from (other) marching band(s) in look and sound, much of this stemmed from the unique instrumentation.

Corrected this for ya. Whether or not drum corps people want to accept this or not is up to them; nevertheless a drum corps, by all definitions of the words 'marching' and ‘band', is actually a subset within the marching band genera. Just like British Brass Bands which compete in parades are actually marching bands even though they do not contain woodwinds.