Stu Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 So, what about the examples brought up form shows in the 70s and 80s. Were those incremental acceptances of abhorrent behavior by the "artists" invading the marching arts? Or my example of Alice Cooper being "killed" multiple times in each of his rock concerts over the last 40~ years. Has his act led to a spike in Satanic cults and people putting murder and death into their shows? (Side note, one winter guard did do a fake hanging in the mid-90s.) Or is it that people can choose to make their own decisions in life, and don't base everything off of what they see on TV or hear on the radio? Your assumption seems to be that all DCI designers are mindless robots with no thought process besides what they see on TV, and they have to copy it. Not that they're free thinking individuals that think long and hard about bringing a concept onto the field that will present well to the members, audience, and judging community. They're not these perverted beings having depraved orgies like Caligula, they're generally great people. Give them some credit. I am not stating that DCI and WGI designers are morally bankrupt; nowhere close. My point is that the incremental acceptance and the lack of placing moral responsibility upon freedoms and behaviors, artistic or otherwise, is exactly what lead the Roman culture to Caligula. And if people cannot see that this type of incremental path is the same type of path we are on in our modern culture they are either blind or obtuse. And since many are not seeing, not willing to see, or completely ignoring that we are on this path, at some point it will inevitably infuse itself into the artistic framework of DCI and WGI; unless we as a culture change our ways and hold strong to the ‘responsibility’ of freedom instead of celebrating the ‘anything goes’ freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RContra Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Caligula looked like a lot of fun. Bring it on. Let's do this. We'll make Lady Gaga look tamer than a PBS telethon. Sodom and Gomorrah won't have anything on the drum corps shows we'll put out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 What would you say to someone who disagrees with you on performance art that you consider to be 'harmful' to kids, and the other person considers it as nothing more than nonthreatening artistic freedom?... especially if it were someone who was going into the realm of becoming a marching arts designer in BOA, WGI, and DCI. By the way, (and no kidding here) I actually had a PHD Sociology Professor in college who maintained that prostitution and adultery are actually helpful, not harmful, to the social construct of marriage; and he, as a sociology expert, gave lectures on why he contends that is the case. What would you say to that professor? He is entitled to his own opinion, and if he could back it up with his lectures, what is the problem? You can still disagree with him, based on your own POV and experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 He is entitled to his own opinion, and if he could back it up with his lectures, what is the problem? You can still disagree with him, based on your own POV and experiences. What if disagreeing with this professor means you get a bad grade in the class? There's a lot about life that's not black or white, rather varying shades of gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) What if disagreeing with this professor means you get a bad grade in the class? There's a lot about life that's not black or white, rather varying shades of gray. Professors typically only punish graduate students or untenured professors for disagreeing with them. Undergrads are almost always exempt. Edited March 21, 2014 by Rifuarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 So, what about the examples brought up form shows in the 70s and 80s. Were those incremental acceptances of abhorrent behavior by the "artists" invading the marching arts? Or my example of Alice Cooper being "killed" multiple times in each of his rock concerts over the last 40~ years. Has his act led to a spike in Satanic cults and people putting murder and death into their shows? (Side note, one winter guard did do a fake hanging in the mid-90s.) Or is it that people can choose to make their own decisions in life, and don't base everything off of what they see on TV or hear on the radio? Your assumption seems to be that all DCI designers are mindless robots with no thought process besides what they see on TV, and they have to copy it. Not that they're free thinking individuals that think long and hard about bringing a concept onto the field that will present well to the members, audience, and judging community. They're not these perverted beings having depraved orgies like Caligula, they're generally great people. Give them some credit. Not to mention that in the early 60's when the Beatles were coming into popularity,their hairstyle was considered by many to be a moral outrage; kids were suspended from school because of that haircut, and not allowed to return until they were cleaner-cut. Looking at that haircut now, it seems pretty tame to say the least. There is a natural progression of societal morality, and what might seem inappropriate at one time seems perfectly natural at another. Street art is a popular, acceptable mainstream art (if not fully exploited by large corporations), where as 20 years ago it mostly just looked at as vandalism. While some folks are maybe talking the extremes (I would venture to guess vomit-art will not be a main-stream art form anytime in the near future), I also think that at some point it becomes more of a "main stream sensibilities have passed by the older generation folks." I don't think that's a good or bad thing, just seemingly a fact. Drum corps is not something that is "forced" upon anyone, and if someone disapproves of perceived morality in show design they are certainly entitled to not consume the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I am not stating that DCI and WGI designers are morally bankrupt; nowhere close. My point is that the incremental acceptance and the lack of placing moral responsibility upon freedoms and behaviors, artistic or otherwise, is exactly what lead the Roman culture to Caligula. And if people cannot see that this type of incremental path is the same type of path we are on in our modern culture they are either blind or obtuse. And since many are not seeing, not willing to see, or completely ignoring that we are on this path, at some point it will inevitably infuse itself into the artistic framework of DCI and WGI; unless we as a culture change our ways and hold strong to the ‘responsibility’ of freedom instead of celebrating the ‘anything goes’ freedom. So how would you set these designers back onto your "moral" and "righteous" path? Take over DCI, and install limits on what show designs people can do? Create some sort of morality police watching over everything and keeping people in line? Or just go straight to the top of the US government, and make sure they're keeping everyone on the straight and narrow path, with no variation for exploration or self-expression. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) What would you say to someone who disagrees with you on performance art that you consider to be 'harmful' to kids, and the other person considers it as nothing more than nonthreatening artistic freedom?... especially if it were someone who was going into the realm of becoming a marching arts designer in BOA, WGI, and DCI. By the way, (and no kidding here) I actually had a PHD Sociology Professor in college who maintained that prostitution and adultery are actually helpful, not harmful, to the social construct of marriage; and he, as a sociology expert, gave lectures on why he contends that is the case. What would you say to that professor? 1) if I disagreed that what was being designed for youth/young adults (like in a HS setting, for example), I would definitely distance myself from that organization. I would never get into a philosophical argument with the director, because he knows his students/parents better than me. But if this was a colleague I would not give them an unsolicited critique (or preach morality to them). Last season judging in the local winter percussion circuit, a HS group did a show where the students where in what obviously was meant to be bondage gear. The costumes were very tight fitting, all the students wore masks with zippered mouths, and it was honestly uncomfortable to watch. All of the other judges and the Head Judge agreed it was pushing the envelope of good taste, and we had a talk with the director during critique about that. The director was adamant that his reasoning for the costumes served the intended purpose, and he said there were no problems with his administration, students, or parents. At that point, that discussion ended for the most part: it wouldn't have been prudent to argue morality or dignified costuming philosophy with the director, and that was that (though the group did not place well at the end of the season, albeit with a totally different judging panel at prelims). I don't think I've seen anything on a winter guard, winter percussion, marching band, or drum corps field that went WAY over the boundaries of morality. Groups have pushed the envelope, and I've seen stuff that I know wouldn't fly with my administration or parents, but nothing so out-of-whack that was obviously awful. I know a WGI IW guard a few years ago did a show based on Nazi concentration camps and WGI essentially told them to change part of it that was too disturbing. But I've never seen anything way over the line. 2) as for the sociology prof, I've heard that argument as well, and to be honest it's kind of compelling. I don't agree necessarily, but it's a similar argument that legalizing drugs would significantly cut down on crime and be a benefit to society, as Netherlands crime stats seemingly prove. I've heard the argument that legal prostitution could potentially cut down on sex crimes. I don't know I buy the argument, but I wouldn't discount it out of hand just because paying sex might be considered immoral. I don't know the stats around legalized prostitution in Nevada to argue a case for or against. As for adultery, I am happily married, 100% committed to my wife, and she is to me. Other than that example, it's not really my place to speak of anyone else's marriage. Edited March 21, 2014 by perc2100 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 What if disagreeing with this professor means you get a bad grade in the class? There's a lot about life that's not black or white, rather varying shades of gray. Stu was talking about the very ideas the professor expoused as being part of the downhill slide of modern morality, in his view anyway, based on this.... "I actually had a PHD Sociology Professor in college who maintained that prostitution and adultery are actually helpful, not harmful, to the social construct of marriage; and he, as a sociology expert, gave lectures on why he contends that is the case." That is what I responded to. I didn't even specify that Stu had to speak up...he can hold any personal view he wants, based on his own belief system, but that doesn't make it universal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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