HornTeacher Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 In the end it's all art. In that respect, this activity hasn't changed at all. THANK YOU for stating it far more wisely and concisely than my meager efforts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maneuvah Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 THANK YOU for stating it far more wisely and concisely than my meager efforts. Yep. It's all art. If art is measured in points and dollars. Facsimiles of Campbell's soup cans = Guernica. Both have similar dollar value. A hip swirl ("You stole my move!") = Playing and marching backwards. Both have similar point value. If you remove demand and mastery from consideration. pissing in a jar is on par with painting a fresco on a chapel ceiling. Both provoke a powerful reaction. Thus, according to your inclusive definition of relativistic "art", it's all art. This discussion has now become irrelevant. Amadeus is the same as "Uhh, rock me Amadeus". Quality means nothing. It's all in the eye of the beholder. We are the hollow men. We are the Last Men. We are no longer men at all. We are Power Puff Girls! We sing, we dance, we kick ###! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Yep. It's all art. If art is measured in points and dollars. Facsimiles of Campbell's soup cans = Guernica. Both have similar dollar value. A hip swirl ("You stole my move!") = Playing and marching backwards. Both have similar point value. If you remove demand and mastery from consideration. pissing in a jar is on par with painting a fresco on a chapel ceiling. Both provoke a powerful reaction. Thus, according to your inclusive definition of relativistic "art", it's all art. This discussion has now become irrelevant. Amadeus is the same as "Uhh, rock me Amadeus". Quality means nothing. It's all in the eye of the beholder. We are the hollow men. We are the Last Men. We are no longer men at all. We are Power Puff Girls! We sing, we dance, we kick ###! But really though, it IS in the eye of the beholder. Maybe you have higher standards, maybe you like different things. Me, I don't give much attention to the visual side of drum corps so hip swirls or not, it's all the same to me. I do have to say, when I DO pay attention to the visual and see body movement, I do roll my eyes a bit and wish they were doing a cool drill move instead, but it isn't enough to turn me off or make me say "wow this sucks." Different standards, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) I'm somewhere in the middle... Drum corps was best to me in the mid 90s. But I appreciate the differences and stil like today's product as different as it may be. Times change, techniques change, not all is good but it evolves whether we want it or not. Edited June 27, 2015 by wesleyrp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I dislike soccer. Put some ice out there, give them some curved long sticks and a little black puck, and it might get my attention. But despite only very marginal changes, mostly cosmetic in nature, the sport of soccer hasn't changed at all in the last half century. Yet its appeal with both participants and fans alike has exploded... all across the world... the last half century. Sometimes you don't have to fix what isn't broke. But if you do break it, you own it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I dislike soccer. Put some ice out there, give them some curved long sticks and a little black puck, and it might get my attention. But despite only very marginal changes, mostly cosmetic in nature, the sport of soccer hasn't changed at all in the last half century. Yet its appeal with both participants and fans alike has exploded... all across the world... the last half century. Sometimes you don't have to fix what isn't broke. But if you do break it, you own it. You keep comparing DCI to sports and I don't understand why. One is an art form that involves athletics, the other is purely athletic. A soccer team cannot help "evolve" a sport because sports have rigid guidelines that are NOT controlled by individual teams. Each team can have its own style, but it will be within the narrow rules given. For example, the Spanish national team is known to play a stout defensive style that many find boring to watch while Germany's team basically is an onslaught. A DCI corps can, however, help evolve an activity. The rules that are given are broad and open to interpretation, which they should be considering DCI is an art form. If a corps starts rolling on the ground, it can start a trend. Did rules have to be added in order to allow electronics, Bb instruments, and such? Yes. However, the big difference is that (and correct me if I'm wrong) many of the members of the board that controls the rules are directors of corps themselves (think of the corps as the teams and the directors as the managers). This is not so in soccer, in which the large governing body of FIFA (yay corruption!) determines the rules. THAT is why, in my opinion, your comparison of sports to DCI is comparing apples to oranges. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcsnare93 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) The below post is the best I've read this year, but a restatement of much of the criticism that the DCI, I mean WGI, people don't and won't hear. Body movement is ridiculous 90% of the time. I hate it. Anyone who wants to win must do it. Score sheets are dictating design. The running thing was first figured out by the Cavaliers. They figured out that they didn't need to play difficult music while marching. They split them up and made the show designs bipolar. Hard music = standstill. Hard drill = no music. Brilliant running around and they were rewarded for it. So everyone followed. Lowest common denominator. BD followed and introduced "staging", which is sleight-of-hand design, making things look difficult that just aren't. Crown brought BOA/WGI into the activity. Crown is the master of body movement. They win, people follow. Traditional drum corps design is like Picasso - a true master of his craft, highest demand, innovation everywhere. BOA/WGI design is like Andy Warhol - covering up his lack of mastery with abstraction and concept Real drum corps - Radiohead New drum corps - Justin Bieber I like innovation with increased demand, not sleight-of-hand. I like pushing the envelope on music and marching demand. That's why I watch sports. That's why I love great symphony orchestras. That's why I love art. When I see the Cadets doing Crown body movement, I want to have a bowel movement. We had staging before BD We had body movement before Crown. I could go on, but my point is none of what you listed happened overnight. It was a gradual process. Tastes evolve. It's kind of silly to think an activity that is largely artistic won't do the same as new generations of MM take the field and their family and friends fill the stands, while others move on (such is life). Edited June 27, 2015 by dcsnare93 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Imagine if nothing evolved... Take the television...the first sets were mammoth and gave off lots of heat, black and white improved, tubed tvs of different sizes made, remote control introduced, color, then extreme large tvs, projection units, digital tvs, led, lcd, plasma, 3d, curved, smart etc..... But here's the thing, for all the changes we still enjoy an awful lot of entertaining products on it no matter what size, shape or change that's been made. Again life evolves. Can you imagine if composers only accepted Gregorian Chant as music and nothing else was composed? Beautiful yes but the same for all? No thanks- I do like to have such a wide variety of types of drum corps to watch. That part of the change/evolving of the activity I think has been a good one! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamMan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 The below post is the best I've read this year, but a restatement of much of the criticism that the DCI, I mean WGI, people don't and won't hear. Body movement is ridiculous 90% of the time. I hate it. Anyone who wants to win must do it. Score sheets are dictating design. The running thing was first figured out by the Cavaliers. They figured out that they didn't need to play difficult music while marching. They split them up and made the show designs bipolar. Hard music = standstill. Hard drill = no music. Brilliant running around and they were rewarded for it. So everyone followed. Lowest common denominator. BD followed and introduced "staging", which is sleight-of-hand design, making things look difficult that just aren't. Crown brought BOA/WGI into the activity. Crown is the master of body movement. They win, people follow. Traditional drum corps design is like Picasso - a true master of his craft, highest demand, innovation everywhere. BOA/WGI design is like Andy Warhol - covering up his lack of mastery with abstraction and concept Real drum corps - Radiohead New drum corps - Justin Bieber I like innovation with increased demand, not sleight-of-hand. I like pushing the envelope on music and marching demand. That's why I watch sports. That's why I love great symphony orchestras. That's why I love art. When I see the Cadets doing Crown body movement, I want to have a bowel movement. Great post. I couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herk Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Well, I won't worry about whatever direction drum corps goes in...unless they start introducing rap and hip hop into their shows. If that happens, it won't take long for gansta rap to rear its ugly head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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