Have we seen the last of high-speed "kaleidoscopic" drill in D

[George Dixon]

I'm sorry but I'm not in the camp that sitting on a ladder is as hard as running across the field while you play your solo

It's just not

BD obviously has demand. Crown has demand. They all have demand

But I think we are mixing "effective" with "demanding" a little bit

[George Dixon]

I still don't think they have the most technically demanding shows in terms of consistent demand on the performers (looking at The Cadets), but they sparingly use the high velocity classically demanding stuff in ways that is incredibly effective when it is used. Their layering and staging between those moments, while its not quite my taste, still takes tons of commitment to sell and make work. Still hard, just maybe not in the classical sense of fast + playing but in its own way.

Totally agree. Effective & impressive. Doing ANYTHING (even interacting with a chair) as well as BD does it is "very hard" "demanding" and "effective"

[2000Cadet]

To me what makes what the Blue Devils drill seem so easy is the fact that they achieve it so close to perfection and so effortlessly it doesn't even look hard. It doesn't even look like they're working it's being achieved at such a high level. I used to be in the camp of their visual stuff is too easy for the numbers it gets, but I turned a corner on that in 2014.

I still don't think they have the most technically demanding shows in terms of consistent demand on the performers (looking at The Cadets), but they sparingly use the high velocity classically demanding stuff in ways that is incredibly effective when it is used. Their layering and staging between those moments, while its not quite my taste, still takes tons of commitment to sell and make work. Still hard, just maybe not in the classical sense of fast + playing but in its own way.

IMO they have achieved a perfect balance between demand, effect, moments, staging, integration, and achievement that has allowed them to completely dominate visual every single year since 2007/2008. That's why they're so strong IMO.

In terms of kaleidoscopic.....hope it's not dead. It can still have its place if it's used right. I understand there are things that are more effective to certain people.....but I think anything can be effective if it's done right.

And something tells me that a few corps this year will use it sparingly to the point where it is extremely effective. I have a feeling Cadets or Crown or both of them will do that.

There was a picture circulating on Facebook amongst my BD friends and it showed just an absolutely PERFECT jazz run technique in the Blue Devils from last year. Personally, when I was marching drum corps, I was in the camp that if it isn't fast, whiplash-type drill, then it isn't hard enough. But the responsibilities of the performers back then and now are so immense that I can't say with absolute certainty that the drill that BD does or any other corps does is easy.

Edited February 16, 2016 by 2000Cadet

[GUARDLING]

I'm sorry but I'm not in the camp that sitting on a ladder is as hard as running across the field while you play your solo

It's just not

BD obviously has demand. Crown has demand. They all have demand

But I think we are mixing "effective" with "demanding" a little bit

Ever try it?

effective can be subjective BUT to an extent so can what someone considers demand imo. I have taught (and judged) both styles and I can tell you cleaning a block, even a running or rotating one is or can be alot easier than cleaning something with multi facets and to make sense . Often ( not anyone specific ) members at a high quality can make something ( including high velocity movement ) look easy.

Pick any style anyone wants and I can tell you NONE of it today is easy. Effective, well there's criteria for that as well as one's opinion.

I think we need to credit diversity in the activity ( although a few believe there isn't any ) and the right of ANY corps to choose change, expand , maybe blend etc etc. .

We forget a time when a jazz running hornline or drum line was met with opposition BIG opposition.

Edited February 16, 2016 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

Ever try it?

Effective can be subjective, BUT to an extent so can what someone considers demand, imo. I have taught (and judged) both styles and I can tell you cleaning a block, even a running or rotating one, is, or can be, a lot easier than cleaning something with multiple facets to make sense . Often (not anyone specific) members at a high quality can make something (including high velocity movement) look easy.

Pick any style anyone wants and I can tell you NONE of it today is easy. Effective, well there's criteria for that as well as one's opinion.

I think we need to credit diversity in the activity (although a few believe there isn't any) and the right of ANY corps to choose, change, expand , maybe blend, etc., etc.

We forget a time when a jazz-running hornline or drum line was met with opposition. BIG opposition.

I'm actually of mixed minds on this subject. I will say that I think some sections (just some!) of, for example, what the Blue Devils have presented in the past few years, despite your and others' repeated arguments to the contrary, either cannot be judged for execution--or isn't very effective. From their backstage videos, we may know, for instance, that every member in one of their more scattered transitions may be performing a specific different movement in a "Felliniesque" passage, but we have no way of knowing whether they're each doing it right. If the judge says, "The fourth person to the right of the side one 30 was visually sloppy at that point", it seemed like, based on the design as described in those videos, that BD's staff could shoot back in critique, "Not at all. It's supposed to look that way! He's a sloppy 'broken clown'."

Edited to fix typo. I can't believe I wrote "we have know way". Ugh.

Edited February 16, 2016 by N.E. Brigand

[GUARDLING]

I'm actually of mixed minds on this subject. I will say that I think some sections (just some!) of, for example, what the Blue Devils have presented in the past few years, despite your and others' repeated arguments to the contrary, either cannot be judged for execution--or isn't very effective. From their backstage videos, we may know, for instance, that every member in one of their more scattered transitions may be performing a specific different movement in a "Felliniesque" passage, but we have know way of knowing whether they're each doing it right. If the judge says, "The fourth person to the right of the side one 30 was visually sloppy at that point", it seemed like, based on the design as described in those videos, that BD's staff could shoot back in critique, "Not at all. It's supposed to look that way! He's a sloppy 'broken clown'.

Mixed minds on a subject is not a bad thing IMO. To me it shows at least an open mind and a willingness to at very least form a studied opinion.

Now with that said IMO YES you are right , one may not know if someone is doing something right but it is no easy task to stage many groups of people on the field. Many just believe staff might say just get over to the next set. Many have tried that and never successfully. If one person just turns a fraction the wrong direction or doesnt take the exact same path, not being able to rely on the person next to them in a form is no easy task and can be a disaster.

The process on how forms or non forms move and evolve and resolve are very judgeable. This may not be in a sense of how most may view judging but it can, as is judged. It is also very easy to judge even the individual. How they move, how the interpret, do they convey are they comfortable in the process they were given.

As I said above, the fast paced rotating forms are very difficult and is one form of affect that works beautifully BUT the combination of multi facets of a program pieced together to create just as many emotions as its counterpart can be just as exciting and hit all the boxes, just in a different way.

Not proposing one is better than the other, just different and both can and should be appreciated, even if styles evolve from it's current form.

Edited February 16, 2016 by GUARDLING

[84BDsop]

This summer, I challenge you to PM me, confirm a date, and come to one of my corps' rehearsals. I'll prove to you just how ridiculously wrong you are. Bring your mouthpiece too, because you're going to be playing the whole time.

If my corps is too far, i'll arrange for you to get a first hand demo from any of a number of corps in other parts of the country.

I'm deadly serious. Will you bring it?

I wouldn't hold my breath, John...

[BoyWonder1911]

The thing I've always disliked about Blue Devils' drill the past few years is that most of it is impossible to tell if it's even clean. When they're scattered about the field, even while not moving, there's just no way to tell - nothing for the judges to judge - so it's chalked up to being a clean set, I suppose?

I'm also one to believe that something isn't "effective" if it isn't entertaining. Sure, we all have our own opinions as to what is entertaining and what is not, but there's a reason why the majority of fans prefer other corps' shows to what the Blue Devils put on the field - and what makes it bad is that DCI is rewarding corps for doing shows that the majority of fans aren't entertained by. And it isn't just the Blue Devils, btw. Recipe for disaster, IMO.

Edited February 16, 2016 by BoyWonder1911

[yogitom]

This summer, I challenge you to PM me, confirm a date, and come to one of my corps' rehearsals. I'll prove to you just how ridiculously wrong you are. Bring your mouthpiece too, because you're going to be playing the whole time.

If my corps is too far, i'll arrange for you to get a first hand demo from any of a number of corps in other parts of the country.

I'm deadly serious. Will you bring it?

I would gladly PM you if I knew how to do it,which I don't. I go to at least 3 shows a year and volunteered for a corps one summer for 2 weeks and watched every rehearsal during that time. I don't know what attending yours would accomplish. We have a difference of opinion so lets just leave it at that. BTW, I don't have a mouthpiece and haven't played a horn since 1976.

[BRASSO]

Its pretty clear to most that the DCI judges that are rewarding all the things the MM's do these days in DCI Drum Corps, never did these things themselves in their youth to determine how comparatively hard or easy it is to do . So we should all be able to agree on here it would seem to me that the judges really are mostly just guessing thru observation alone how difficult ( or easy ) the staging or the high velocity drills by the MM's are in the show. Most , if not all, of the current DCI judges ( average age in their 50's.. some now into their 70's ) judging the visual caption components in DCI today never marched such high velocity drills themselves or did this modern staging themselves in their own marching days. So when someone tells us something is " hard " or comparatively " easy " to execute in todays DCI Drum Corps competition, it is most properly viewed in the context that even all the DCI judges of today that judge these shows have never performed, nor executed these high speed, high velocity, maneuvers ( or stagings ) in their lives either to determine how easy or difficult the maneuver or the staging is to perform and execute. The visual oriented caption judges of today are simply observing it, and mostly just guessing about its levels of demand, really....... no more, no less.

Edited February 16, 2016 by BRASSO