Pete Freedman Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I'm not sure I would call this a bugle, but it is a fine looking instrument. Sounds great too, based on the youtube vid. From what I understand, the role of bore size on the sound is considered much less important than it used to be, in that any effect a manufacturer can achieve with bore size is easier to do with subtle changes to the bell and elsewhere. Apparently many cornets today do not even have a conical bore. A cornet today can be thought of as a sweet sounding trumpet aimed for people who want a sweet sounding trumpet. Any way the manufacturers can achieve that will work. Trade secrets come into play. The conical bore may or may not be part of that. The distinct wrap and the mouthpiece type is mostly just part of what that particular market expects. By the same token, you can call this new soprano instrument a bugle simply because it is designed to appeal to the bugle market. There are various trumpets out there with big bores and big bells, including 5.3" and 5.4" bells, and they are not referred to as bugles. But if they were, that would be fine too. Returning to bore size, if bore size isn't such a big factor in the sound of a trumpet, then maybe it isn't a big reason G bugles have that characteristic sound. Supporting this is the allegation that not all bugles had big bores, and some trumpets had bigger bores. Perhaps the sound is due to: - G bugles are lower pitch instruments (1/4 octave longer tubing) with correspondingly lower pitched overtones. That should make a difference in the sound of the instrument. If so, it is not so much the width of the pipe that matters most, but the length. - G bugles are lower pitch instruments and so they are in fact playing lower notes. That is, the music is scored slightly lower. - G bugles with two valves allow fewer key signatures to be fully playable. When all the music is played in a very few predictable key signatures, a highly distinct sound is created. - As someone else pointed out, back in the day the 3rd chairs weren't particularly solid players, and that led to the phenomenon of the future Chicago Symphony soloist standing next to a duffer. That also creates a distinct sound. Today the bar could be high or low depending on the corps but will be more consistent within a given corps. - Back then corps tended to cobble together instruments from different manufacturers with different bells, different mouthpieces, different sounds. In short, bore size was at most one of several potential factors behind the distinctive sound. And I bet the Raiders will sound fantastic this Summer, even if they don't really capture that ol' time G bugle sound. But that's ok with me. Good luck with this fine instrument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frachel Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Apparently many cornets today do not even have a conical bore. Then it's not a cornet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 - G bugles are lower pitch instruments and so they are in fact playing lower notes. That is, the music is scored slightly lower. - G bugles with two valves allow fewer key signatures to be fully playable. When all the music is played in a very few predictable key signatures, a highly distinct sound is created. Didn't this mean that the music was actually scored slightly higher then back in the day? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob P. Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Didn't this mean that the music was actually scored slightly higher then back in the day? I think so, since that allows the use of the higher partials, which are chromatic. I believe that this is the main reason for the "distinctive" sound of the G instruments, that, and the fact that the lower notes of the longer length G instruments contain more harmonics - its physics. Warning, I am an engineer and I can do the math! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Didn't this mean that the music was actually scored slightly higher then back in the day? Yes. I'm not trained in theory, but I figured out firsthand how skillful corps arrangers were before Bb when I tried to make Downey's arrangement of "When A Man Loves a Woman" work for brass in Bb and C. The lower voices don't come through nearly as powerfully. As much as people loved the shrieking high notes, the most distinctive difference in sound between G and Bb is the way basses and baritones penetrated the ensemble on instruments tuned so much higher. I miss the sound of G horns from a few corps, but those instruments are beastly to play in tune, which is where a really good sound comes from regardless of instrumentation or venue. There were maybe 3-4 corps per year who could make it work, and it was in large part because of gifted arrangers like Downey and Prime. I think the overall brass sound in DCI was improved by the switch to Bb. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) wow, wrong thread. sorry. Edited June 6, 2016 by Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The Raiders had their first public appearance with my horns this past weekend in NY City! Looking forward to see them in action next month! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Then it's not a cornet. Right. to Pete: It's often a misunderstood point. Obviously all of the slides have to be cylindrical or else they couldn't slide. But there are three sections to consider a progressive change in bore size. 1. The lead pipe is the smallest with a conical bore that progressively increases to where it reaches the valve casing (it plateaus if there is a tuning slide in there and then continues on the other side of the slide). 2. The valve slides all run in parallel, so they are the same in bore, but they are larger than where the lead pipe left off. 3. The bell picks up at a larger bore than the valve slides and then progresses (like a trumpet does) to the end of the bell. On a trumpet, the bore is slightly conical from the lead pipe to the start of the main tuning slide, but from there the bore stays the same all the way to the valve casing, through the valve slides and up to the start of the bell. It is not always easily perceivable, but if it is a cornet, then it has this progression of bore through these 3 sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAvery Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Perhaps the sound is due to: - G bugles are lower pitch instruments (1/4 octave longer tubing) with correspondingly lower pitched overtones. That should make a difference in the sound of the instrument. If so, it is not so much the width of the pipe that matters most, but the length. - G bugles are lower pitch instruments and so they are in fact playing lower notes. That is, the music is scored slightly lower. I have always thought G bugles were pitched higher, as the length of tubing is shorter than a trumpet. G Bugle Trumpet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I have always thought G bugles were pitched higher, as the length of tubing is shorter than a trumpet. Nope. G bugles are pitched a minor third lower than Bb instruments. That's why you can approximate the range of a G bugle using a trumpet with the third valve down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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