Does BAC overtake Cadets by San Antonio?

[ForTheCommonGood]

Just now, DrumManTx said:

If BK has a superior product I'm Jesus.  

Their brass and percussion are easily as good or maybe even better but that's about it.  

Opinions are opinions. I think BK's show is wonderful, with it's own set of issues, but still great. I'm not as impressed with BAC's product in terms of demand, which I think will give BK and PR their last push into August, whereas BAC doesn't have as much to clean. Like I said, this is just opinion, and just discussing this activity that employs wonderful students and staff. 

[BRASSO]

17 minutes ago, DrumManTx said:

If BK has a superior product I'm Jesus.  

 

 haha !!... lol!... Maybe I'm just tired at this hour.. but there has been some really very funny comments, quips today on this thread today. I thank everyone that contributed to that today,.. whether intentionally, or unintentionally, I suppose in the end it doesn't matter, just that most of us had a good time, and a few good laughs. Now, nite all !

Edited July 12, 2017 by BRASSO

[DrumManTx]

21 minutes ago, ForTheCommonGood said:

Opinions are opinions. I think BK's show is wonderful, with it's own set of issues, but still great. I'm not as impressed with BAC's product in terms of demand, which I think will give BK and PR their last push into August, whereas BAC doesn't have as much to clean. Like I said, this is just opinion, and just discussing this activity that employs wonderful students and staff. 

I'm not trying to come off so one sided.   I will elaborate my side. 

I simultaneously like and dislike BKs show, and very strongly on both sides of that spectrum.   Brass and percussion are easily top 5, maybe even top 4 quality.  They're WONDERFUL.  The Beck opener is amazing in every way, the way it builds and climaxes is phenomenal.   The Schwartner is absolutely amazing musically, it's one of the freshest and best arranged/performed things on the field this summer.  The side to side brass stuff, percussion writing and performance, just everything are wonderful.  

However visually that's where it starts to fall apart for me.  The circle things the guard works with are incredibly ineffective to me and look incredibly dirty and impossible to clean.  

Then the Bjork.  To me that's where the pacing of the show just tanks.  There are some cool things at the beginning of it with the mic'd snares and stuff.  But it just kinda meanders around for a REALLY long time (and yes I realize that is the nature of the original source material) but the understated music isn't really enhanced at all by anything that is going on visually.  The stuff with the mirrors is yes thematically relevant but doesn't have a ton of effect unless you're probably sitting super close.  Then those pole........things the guard does work with don't really do much of anything either.   

The closer.  There are some interesting things going on with the arrangement of it but something just feels.......off.  I appreciate the use of space but again it doesn't really do much for me on an extended/phrasing basis. Drill is pretty stick and they're on their 4th year recycling the exact same ending.  

I simultaneously get and have no idea what I'm watching.  I get the eye/introspective stuff but it just feels thin in how the execute it.  They're taking a ton of risk, I give them that, and it pays off in the front half of the show.  

BAC.  I don't think they have as much musical demand.  But that's about it.  Their show is paced incredibly well with a clear story and very evenly spaced big moments with meat between them.  They have a very well written visual program with great staging, there is never a moment where my mind seems to wander. And the BIGGIE is color guard.  I don't think BK has a bad guard but with what they're being given to work with they're not really being setup for success.  Boston Crusaders is well staged, written to their weaknesses and strengths, and incredibly integral to the show.  It might not be new, harder, or TOO risky like BKs but it is incredibly air tight.  

To me in terms of advantages:

GE Music - Right now Boston Crusaders, potentially Blue Knights down the road.  

GE Visual - Heavily in favor of Boston Crusaders.  

Visual Proficiency - Don't know yet, need to see live.  

Visual Analysis - In favor of Boston Crusaders   

Color Guard - Heavily in favor of Boston Crusaders.

Brass - Even match, potentially in favor of Blue Knights   

Music Analysis - Same as brass.  

Percussion - Blue Knights, but both good.  

So basically I respect what Blue Knights are trying but I'm not sure it's clicking as a show yet at all.   If the back half was as good as the first I would easily have them competing for the top 5.   Their Color Guard is also a huge liability, but I pin that more on design.  

Boston Crusaders have a super consistent and air tight show with no caption weaknesses.

Blue Knights could be in the game down the road but I think some things are going to have to change before that happens.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DrumManTx

[jjeffeory]

On 7/10/2017 at 11:13 PM, Cappybara said:

I've heard they have something not so subtle waiting to be added... they're currently hiding behind those stained glass panels at the back of the field 

my worry is the kitchen sink is coming 

That's what we've seen from them in the past, say the patriotic show... If that kind of schtick is what's going to happen with the ending, it will fall flat, but I'm thinking lesson learned on that.

[eightyonepointthree]

Just watched both shows and didn't read this entire thread...

 

Cadets are too literal with themes and I think this hurts them.  The choir singing the entire show is tough to take.  Cadets just seem like they are trying too hard.

Boston has intrigue and an overall better product.  Because of the way the judging community sees the corps, Boston will have to be three points better than Cadets to beat them by a tenth.  Just the way it has always been.  Can they?  It depends on their instructional staff.  The product is there.

[ForTheCommonGood]

1 minute ago, DrumManTx said:

I'm not trying to come off so one sided.   I will elaborate my side. 

I simultaneously like and dislike BKs show, and very strongly on both sides of that spectrum.   Brass and percussion are easily top 5, maybe even top 4 quality.  They're WONDERFUL.  The Beck opener is amazing in every way, the way it builds and climates is phenomenal.   The Schwartner is absolutely amazing musically, it's one of the freshest and best arranged/performed things on the field this summer.  The side to side brass stuff, percussion writing and performance, just everything are wonderful.  

However visually that's where it starts to fall apart for me.  The circle things the guard works with are incredibly ineffective to me and look incredibly dirty and impossible to clean.  

Then the Bjork.  To me that's where the pacing of the show just tanks.  There are some cool things at the beginning of it with the mic'd snares and stuff.  But it just kinda meanders around for a REALLY long time (and yes I realize that is the nature of the original source material) but the understated music isn't really enhanced at all by anything that is going on visually.  The stuff with the mirrors is yes thematically relevant but doesn't have a ton of effect unless you're probably sitting super close.  Then those pole........things the guard does work with don't really do much of anything either.   

The closer.  There are some interesting things going on with the arrangement of it but something just feels.......off.  I appreciate the use of space but again it doesn't really do much for me on an extended/phrasing basis. Drill is pretty stick and they're on their 4th year recycling the exact same ending.  

I simultaneously get and have no idea what I'm watching.  I get the eye/introspective stuff but it just feels thin in how the execute it.  They're taking a ton of risk, I give them that, and it pays off in the front half of the show.  

BAC.  I don't think they have as much musical demand.  But that's about it.  Their show is paced incredibly well with a clear story and very evenly spaced big moments with meat between them.  They have a very well written visual program with great staging, there is never a moment where my mind seems to wander. And the BIGGIE is color guard.  I don't think BK has a bad guard but with what they're being given to work with they're not really being setup for success.  Boston Crusaders is well staged, written to their weaknesses and strengths, and incredibly integral to the show.  It might not be new, harder, or TOO risky like BKs but it is incredibly air tight.  

To me in terms of advantages:

GE Music - Right now Boston Crusaders, potentially Blue Knights down the road.  

GE Visual - Heavily in favor of Boston Crusaders.  

Visual Proficiency - Don't know yet, need to see live.  

Visual Analysis - In favor of Boston Crusaders   

Color Guard - Heavily in favor of Boston Crusaders.

Brass - Even match, potentially in favor of Blue Knights   

Music Analysis - Same as brass.  

Percussion - Blue Knights, but both good.  

So basically I respect what Blue Knights are trying but I'm not sure it's clicking as a show yet at all.   If the back half was as good as the first I would easily have them competing for the top 5.   Their Color Guard is also a huge liability, but I pin that more on design.  

Boston Crusaders have a super consistent and air tight show with no caption weaknesses.

Blue Knights could be in the game down the road but I think some things are going to have to change before that happens.

Thank you for your thoroughness, I love having good discussion about drum corps! I have to say I agree with you. In overall visual, BAC 100% gets the nod in terms of design, especially that outstanding guard. BK unfortunately is not hitting their stride with the guard, I think it has a lot to with how you can't really discern them from the brass and percussion, as well as some interesting writing choices that I'm not sure are hitting their stride.  Musically I would have to give it Blue Knights, that brass section is divine. Percussion wise Blue Knights writing is so musical, and BAC plays with such aplomb for this point of the season. 

BAC and BK a lot going for them. It'll be really interesting to see how things play out, they seem really evenly matched. I love seeing the Crusaders making that competitive push this year that brings them in the same tier as the Blue Knights, who also experienced something similar a few years ago. 

My personal opinion with Boston Crusaders is that they need a more difficult show in the brass caption and the drill caption to compete with the upper echelon in DCI. Not more runs or body movement, just more meat, variety of styles, more exposed passages and less full ensemble work. I'm very impressed by their ensemble sound, but I feel like there are more than enough impact moments in this show. Showing off what your individuals can do in smaller groups or even by themselves in future show designs I think would benefit them. 

The Blue Devils, Santa Clara Vanguard, and Carolina Crown all are prime examples of mixture of exposure and full ensemble work. Especially this year. Boston Crusaders show falls behind in that department where it succeeds overwhelmingly in the rest! I think the design team might have actually underestimated this brass line, because going back to Boston Crusader's 2016 show, it definitely had more demand in terms of exposure and variety. 

This is all opinion, but I too did not want to seem one sided. I love what these corps are doing and I'm glad to have a chance to talk about it with people as passionate as myself!  

[DrumManTx]

Just now, ForTheCommonGood said:

Thank you for your thoroughness, I love having good discussion about drum corps! I have to say I agree with you. In overall visual, BAC 100% gets the nod in terms of design, especially that outstanding guard. BK unfortunately is not hitting their stride with the guard, I think it has a lot to with how you can't really discern them from the brass and percussion, as well as some interesting writing choices that I'm not sure are hitting their stride.  Musically I would have to give it Blue Knights, that brass section is divine. Percussion wise Blue Knights writing is so musical, and BAC plays with such aplomb for this point of the season. 

BAC and BK a lot going for them. It'll be really interesting to see how things play out, they seem really evenly matched. I love seeing the Crusaders making that competitive push this year that brings them in the same tier as the Blue Knights, who also experienced something similar a few years ago. 

My personal opinion with Boston Crusaders is that they need a more difficult show in the brass caption and the drill caption to compete with the upper echelon in DCI. Not more runs or body movement, just more meat, variety of styles, more exposed passages and less full ensemble work. I'm very impressed by their ensemble sound, but I feel like there are more than enough impact moments in this show. Showing off what your individuals can do in smaller groups or even by themselves in future show designs I think would benefit them. 

The Blue Devils, Santa Clara Vanguard, and Carolina Crown all are prime examples of mixture of exposure and full ensemble work. Especially this year. Boston Crusaders show falls behind in that department where it succeeds overwhelmingly in the rest! I think the design team might have actually underestimated this brass line, because going back to Boston Crusader's 2016 show, it definitely had more demand in terms of exposure and variety. 

This is all opinion, but I too did not want to seem one sided. I love what these corps are doing and I'm glad to have a chance to talk about it with people as passionate as myself!  

Sounds like we actually agree.  

I think Boston Crusaders have a 6th place ceiling right now, and considering where they were a season ago and how hard it is to move up that's pretty incredible.  Not saying they're a tier above corps like Blue Knights or Phantom Regiment but they are the only one of the three that has no weaknesses and seems to have a show tailor made for where they are.  

Blue Knighrs show disappoints me right now because I think the members are way better than the product they're being given right now.  Maybe that'll change, I would love to love their show because the brass and percussion are too good for me not to.  

Regardless both of them and IMO one other corps have all the tools, on the field or not, to shake up DCI in the coming seasons.   

[ForTheCommonGood]

Just now, DrumManTx said:

Sounds like we actually agree.  

I think Boston Crusaders have a 6th place ceiling right now, and considering where they were a season ago and how hard it is to move up that's pretty incredible.  Not saying they're a tier above corps like Blue Knights or Phantom Regiment but they are the only one of the three that has no weaknesses and seems to have a show tailor made for where they are.  

Blue Knighrs show disappoints me right now because I think the members are way better than the product they're being given right now.  Maybe that'll change, I would love to love their show because the brass and percussion are too good for me not to.  

Regardless both of them and IMO one other corps have all the tools, on the field or not, to shake up DCI in the coming seasons.   

Couldn't agree more with the last one especially. Both of them remind me of Carolina Crown just before they dropped the bomb in 2008 with that incredibly musically demanding show. I feel like this is Boston Crusaders stepping stone to something incredibly special. The same for Blue Knights! 

And lets not forget Phantom Regiment, I cannot wait to see how they stack up with Boston Crusaders! 

[Cappybara]

32 minutes ago, eightyonepointthree said:

Just watched both shows and didn't read this entire thread...

 

Cadets are too literal with themes and I think this hurts them.  The choir singing the entire show is tough to take.  Cadets just seem like they are trying too hard.

Boston has intrigue and an overall better product.  Because of the way the judging community sees the corps, Boston will have to be three points better than Cadets to beat them by a tenth.  Just the way it has always been.  Can they?  It depends on their instructional staff.  The product is there.

I do wonder how come nuance isn't in Cadets' vocabulary. I understand run and gun is in their DNA, but that shouldn't have to translate to the way they present their productions.

Let's look through their productions in the past 10 years 

2007: explicit idea of the appreciation of music, narrated with voices literally told the audience what they loved about music. No nuance there

2008: a storyline show. Self explanatory that not much nuance would be in a show like that

2009: I believe this was the WSS show? Can't blame them for lack of nuance in something like that due to the nature of the show

2010: Storyline show of a little boy bonding with... you guessed it, Toy Souldiers

2011: another very explicit theme BUT it worked this time around because they juxtaposed two very explicit ideas that are commonplace and well known. 

2012: hey did you know this show is about Christmas? No? Let's throw some presents just to make sure

2013: This is more like it (there's a reason this might be my most favorite Cadets show ever). This show was similar to 2011 but it made the idea more abstract. This is the type of show concept the Cadets need to go for in the future in my opinion. The execution wasn't great due to the boxes but they had the right idea in this one. 

2014: It is possible to do narration and still not be explicit about everything, and this show sat on the border of that. At times, it felt too literal (ahem, that closer...), but I think that they did relatively well with the Americana theme here. I would still prefer something even more abstract like Bloo 2013 

2015: 10. 10. 10. Out of any Cadets show done, this is quite possibly the most literal show ever. Nothing left to the imagination. 

2016: I still get confused what this show is about so I guess it wasn't totally literal? But it was pretty much a storyline show that was hard to follow, so I don't think the lack of clarity was intentional

2017: I can't blame them too much for the lack of nuance in this, what with the source material they're working with and the likely limitations set forth by the Bernstein estate. Still, this show is quite literal with very little of the nuance.

 

The Cadets do add some diversity in that not many corps do such literal shows anymore. In that way, even though the uniforms have changed, the Cadets very much remain an old school corps; they seem averse to presenting shows that have the modernistic abstraction or nuance that most shows have. 

For me, not my cup of tea (and it is increasingly looking like it isn't the judge's cup of tea either), but I can appreciate the diversity they bring to the field. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Cappybara

[Terri Schehr]

5 hours ago, eightyonepointthree said:

Just watched both shows and didn't read this entire thread...

 

Cadets are too literal with themes and I think this hurts them.  The choir singing the entire show is tough to take.  Cadets just seem like they are trying too hard.

Boston has intrigue and an overall better product.  Because of the way the judging community sees the corps, Boston will have to be three points better than Cadets to beat them by a tenth.  Just the way it has always been.  Can they?  It depends on their instructional staff.  The product is there.

This^^^^