Tim K Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 21 hours ago, Land_Surfer said: This what I dream of. They definitely wouldn't be ranked down at 10th performing in this style: Disclaimer: this is one of my all time favorite shows, and what is interesting, so too is SCV in 1989. I do not think the arrangement of “New World” would hold up today and I don’t think you can revisit the real iconic shows with great success. Cadets returned to “West Side Story” in 94 with a second place finish and 2009 with a third, hardly failures, but those of us who saw the 1984 show still see it as the classic version. Phantom tried this a bit in 2014 with “Swan Lake” which some folks saw as a redo of 1987’s “Winter Palace.” Instead of performing previously unused music in the Tchaikovsky score which could have made a huge difference, outside music was added. I know you could argue Phantom did it with “Spartacus” in 2008, but the 80’s versions were very different from 2008, at least in my opinion. Stylistically, the Jazz arrangement of the second movement would face serious criticism, even though it was great at the time. Show design has also changed. That being said, there was a drive and determination in the 1989 show. There was also a comfort level. The last time I saw that with Phantom was 2012 and “Turandot.” That is not to say there have not been some memorable moments in most shows (I had a hard time with last year), but there are moments, not complete shows. Personally, I would love to see another “Turandot” style show. Phantom could do a great job with “Tosca,” “Cav/Pag,” “Otello,” “Aida,” to name a few. Great music, lots of theatrical opportunities, people die at the end. It would be music in Phantom’s traditional comfort level, and could provide theatrics that would work well today. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenanne_1536 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, fireshane1 said: Agreed, but if you look at the overall history of the corps from its beginning, there have been these drops in placement just before the corps massively rebuilds and returns to being the powerhouse that is Phantom Regiment. As a alumnus of Regiment, it bothers the hell out of me to see where they’re at right now, but I’m confident that the correct adjustments will be made. Agreed about the past, but the past was different. Regiment dropped in 85/86, 98, and 09 before rising again. However, in those three instances, it wasn't like the corps above them were so massively outdesigning them like they are today. Their shows in 85, 86, 98, and 09 were on par with the designs that everyone was doing, even the top corps. It was a talent issue then. Today, they are being outdesigned by corps that likely won't make the top 12 (Spirit, Colts and Academy/Crossmen, to name a few) - it's the talent that is keeping them in the top 12. It's a design issue today (perhaps coupled with a talent issue). That's a huge difference. Each successive year they drop in placement means the lower the quality of talent coming in the next year. Cappy said they are still placing near their average (6th). That's irrelevant. And, they aren't. They have not been a threat to place 6th since they last did it in 2013. They are on a downward trend. They are a mid-tier corps moving into the lower-tier. They are a few years behind Madison and look where Madison is. They need to figure it out, and figure it out quick. 2012 - 3rd 2013 - 6th 2014 - 7th 2015 - 7th 2016 - 8th 2017 - 9th 2018 - 10th (as of right now) That's a downward trend. I think expecting them to suddenly right the ship the jump up the rankings sets you up for a disappointment. Been there, done that with Madison. Edited July 23, 2018 by queenanne_1536 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonLUck Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 13 hours ago, ftwdrummer said: I mean no offense, but to simply ignore the obvious is a lot like an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. The reason these corps are getting the constructive criticism they're receiving is because these forums are filled with very smart former marching members, educators, and designers. I doubt there's a person on the forums who genuinely means to harm by criticizing, one way or another, it is all constructive and these corps would be smart to pay attention. I guess what I'm saying is: Regardless of these forums and the constructive criticism, Phantom Regiment's scores last night speak volumes. The corps is slowly falling out of the top 12. That isn't a criticism. That is a fact. This wasn't the original post. This was a reply. I'd advise reading what I originally wrote -- then this -- and it should make better sense fore you. Thanks :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCEP00 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said: Agreed about the past, but the past was different. Regiment dropped in 85/86, 98, and 09 before rising again. However, in those three instances, it wasn't like the corps above them were so massively outdesigning them like they are today. Their shows in 85, 86, 98, and 09 were on par with the designs that everyone was doing, even the top corps. It was a talent issue then. Today, they are being outdesigned by corps that likely won't make the top 12 (Spirit, Colts and Academy/Crossmen, to name a few) - it's the talent that is keeping them in the top 12. It's a design issue today (perhaps coupled with a talent issue). That's a huge difference. Each successive year they drop in placement means the lower the quality of talent coming in the next year. Cappy said they are still placing near their average (6th). That's irrelevant. And, they aren't. They have not been a threat to place 6th since they last did it in 2013. They are on a downward trend. They are a mid-tier corps moving into the lower-tier. They are a few years behind Madison and look where Madison is. They need to figure it out, and figure it out quick. 2012 - 3rd 2013 - 6th 2014 - 7th 2015 - 7th 2016 - 8th 2017 - 9th 2018 - 10th (as of right now) That's a downward trend. I think expecting them to suddenly right the ship the jump up the rankings sets you up for a disappointment. Been there, done that with Madison. It's a young corps, which explains the design. I'm guessing Will gave them a somewhat less demanding show this year - when compared to the top 7 - to match their age and talent level. I'm guessing they climb back up if they can return MMs over the next several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, Tim K said: I do not think the arrangement of “New World” would hold up today and I don’t think you can revisit the real iconic shows with great success. Cadets returned to “West Side Story” in 94 with a second place finish and 2009 with a third, hardly failures, but those of us who saw the 1984 show still see it as the classic version. Phantom tried this a bit in 2014 with “Swan Lake” which some folks saw as a redo of 1987’s “Winter Palace.” Instead of performing previously unused music in the Tchaikovsky score which could have made a huge difference, outside music was added. I know you could argue Phantom did it with “Spartacus” in 2008, but the 80’s versions were very different from 2008, at least in my opinion. Stylistically, the Jazz arrangement of the second movement would face serious criticism, even though it was great at the time. Show design has also changed. I agree. There's also a pretty high degree of audience and judging sophistication - quite honestly, a straightforward NWS would bore the audience. The top corps are taking inspiration from all over and creating something new with it. It's a little simplistic to say "just do that, Phantom," but... just do that, Phantom. It is entirely possible to stay true to classical music yet create amazing productions on the front edge of drum corps. We know this because Carolina Crown does it every single year. I said this over in the Madison thread, and it bears repeating here - the Cavaliers new design folks, when they came in in 2016, gave an interview where they said "we asked ourselves and others, what are the most important parts of being a Cavalier?" And then they tossed the rest. Phantom could be well served by such a review. What is the core of the corps (ha!), and let the rest go. Mike (edit - and if you look at the charts, the 2008 Spartacus had very, very little in common with the 80's version. Opening 25-second fanfare, ballad... that's about it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 41 minutes ago, PCEP00 said: It's a young corps, which explains the design. I'm guessing Will gave them a somewhat less demanding show this year - when compared to the top 7 - to match their age and talent level. I'm guessing they climb back up if they can return MMs over the next several years. That is if they retain the talent. BAC had a very young corps in 2016, and quite a few remained, but they knew a mega talented staff was on the horizon. My guess is that while Boston Crusaders worked hard to make marching with BAC a good experience, that would not have been enough to retain the best members that could march elsewhere if they did not have the staff and the game plan. If you want to have the best talent remain, Phantom has to have concrete plans to move ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireshane1 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said: Their shows in 85, 86, 98, and 09 were on par with the designs that everyone was doing, even the top corps. It was a talent issue then. I marched Regiment 97 and 98. The same marching members were there both years, minus just a few age-outs. We came in 4th in 97, and 8th in 98. It wasn’t a talent issue, I can assure you. There was a definite shift in the design quality of the two shows... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdaddy Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said: Regiment dropped in 85/86, 98, and 09 before rising again. However, in those three instances, it wasn't like the corps above them were so massively outdesigning them like they are today. Every bit of this. To me, the combo of JD Shaw and Paul Rennick meant that their corps wasn't going to be outdesigned (I'd say it only happened with that Starry Night show in 2012, but even that had some cool musical moments). When paired with great visual design, they were top four. Even when paired with mediocre drill design, they won a title! Without Rennick, the 2011 show was still really special and had strong visual contributions. What made 2012 work? I'd say a combination of a tremendous amount of brass talent (living off of what JD built), a tremendously effective visual design, and a show that came from entirely the same source. They were designing musical moods using the moods created by the composer of the opera. They had a great story, and they told it really well. Ever since has been a hodgepodge of so-so concepts, occasional good source material, and a lagging visual design. They either aren't starting with a good concept or story to begin with, or they aren't designing everything else effectively to compensate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenanne_1536 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, fireshane1 said: I marched Regiment 97 and 98. The same marching members were there both years, minus just a few age-outs. We came in 4th in 97, and 8th in 98. It wasn’t a talent issue, I can assure you. There was a definite shift in the design quality of the two shows... You were there. I wasn't. However, despite the design issues of the '98 show, it still was in line with what everyone else is doing. 2018 SCV and 2018 Regiment are worlds apart in design, much more severely than Regiment '98 and Cadets '98. That's what I was getting at. After Madison's great finish in 2015, I only thought things were going to get better. That didn't happen. It's not going to happen at Regiment either unless there is some type of overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdaddy Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said: After Madison's great finish in 2015, I only thought things were going to get better. That didn't happen. Ironically, some of the folks that kept Regiment visually competitive from 11-13 were heading Madison's visuals in 2015 - KC Michel, Dave Veda, KC Perkins, Michael James. (a revolving door of good designers isn't helping Regiment's situation either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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