Per the California Attorney General Vanguard is operating illegally as a non profit

[scheherazadesghost]

20 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Again, the SoA debacle may not have occurred had there been adult oversight on the bus.   Are you suggesting it is better to have a bunch on 16-21 year olds left to themselves for extended periods?   That has just as much potential for bad stuff to happen.  I think Ms S-Ghost’s suggestion of properly vetted staff (or admin as mentioned in the BAC comment) on the busses keeping an eye on things is a good idea.  

I have reports from last season that some corps have tour admin rolling in member busses as staff reps. (This small fact was a side of the reports; I've got nothing on violations on busses rn, but sadly, it may only be a matter of time.) Some of the corps advertise the admin jobs with this specific responsibility in the description.

I don't know the perfect solution here, as an outsider. But I do know that if a predator gets past extremely rigorous vetting, training, compliance, and reporting requirements, then you're potentially dealing with the rare but dangerous case of a psychopath. And this is the part where I remind everyone that you don't ever eliminate this threat, you diminish risk and harm as much as possible.

Best thing to do is require rigorous training/oversight to detur most predators. Instill the fear of god in everyone else. Tighten up reporting protocols and channels. Follow through with rigorous investigations and reprimands for violations. I rarely see the professionals or training needed for all that among drum corps staffs.

Train the members better too. Show them how to break the cycle of innocent bystanders not knowing what to do when they see or hear something credible. This new Gen is smarter than us, they'd pick that up quickly and potentially run with it for the rest of their lives as better citizens.

[JimF-LowBari]

22 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

 

Train the members better too. Show them how to break the cycle of innocent bystanders not knowing what to do when they see or hear something credible.

HUGE part of my training when with Dept of Defense. There the training is geared mostly to the military so it comes down to “protect your team mates”. Don’t see any difference between that and “protect your corps mates”. 
Along with knowing what to do is knowing what looks like potential abuse or actions that could lead to potential abuse. 

[scheherazadesghost]

18 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

HUGE part of my training when with Dept of Defense. There the training is geared mostly to the military so it comes down to “protect your team mates”. Don’t see any difference between that and “protect your corps mates”. 
Along with knowing what to do is knowing what looks like potential abuse or actions that could lead to potential abuse. 

Repeated violations against myself or other alum without so much as the acknowledgement that they happened is demoralizing. Admittedly, in some cases we don't step forward with our reports and corps wash their hands in those situations, but everything we're talking about is an open secret. There's no excuse for not prioritizing this work at this point. There's no excuse for Vanguard not to, given our history.

And not just the victim/survivor suffers in these situations, but such violations fracture morale and lead to diminished capacity for members and staff. Sometimes my fellow members protected me from staff, and I have reports of other alum doing the same in other seasons. But they were outliers. All too often victims/survivors were further ridiculed by members and staff after they were violated.

The manifestation may be different in the case of financial mismanagement, but the cause is the same: abuse of power.

Edited May 18, 2023 by scheherazadesghost
grammar

[craiga]

All staff members,  including food and uniform volunteers submit full applications now and undergo complete background checks.  You can't say in one breath there should be adult, non-marching members on the busses and then say one might turn out to be a psychopath. 

Seriously. 

[IllianaLancerContra]

41 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

I have reports from last season that some corps have tour admin rolling in member busses as staff reps. (This small fact was a side of the reports; I've got nothing on violations on busses rn, but sadly, it may only be a matter of time.) Some of the corps advertise the admin jobs with this specific responsibility in the description.

I don't know the perfect solution here, as an outsider. But I do know that if a predator gets past extremely rigorous vetting, training, compliance, and reporting requirements, then you're potentially dealing with the rare but dangerous case of a psychopath. And this is the part where I remind everyone that you don't ever eliminate this threat, you diminish risk and harm as much as possible.

Best thing to do is require rigorous training/oversight to detur most predators. Instill the fear of god in everyone else. Tighten up reporting protocols and channels. Follow through with rigorous investigations and reprimands for violations. I rarely see the professionals or training needed for all that among drum corps staffs.

Train the members better too. Show them how to break the cycle of innocent bystanders not knowing what to do when they see or hear something credible. This new Gen is smarter than us, they'd pick that up quickly and potentially run with it for the rest of their lives as better citizens.

There is no 100% perfect solution to stop member abuse.  

And I believe that the vast majority of the people around Drum Corps are not psychopaths looking for victims.  But we have seen a small number of individuals who have misbehaved, and now we need to put processes in place to keep this small number of individuals from predating on members.

And I also think some predators approach it as a game - Corps put protections in place, and predators find a way to circumvent the protection (this expands to other activities than Drum Corps - in USAF some years back we had a bunch of Military Training Instructors predating on basic trainees (talk about a power imbalance) and the whole basic training system was revamped.  And other instructors found new ways around the system) - long ramble sorry.  
 

Putting my biology hat on - this is a type of predator-prey relationship, and these are constantly evolving.  

[scheherazadesghost]

17 minutes ago, craiga said:

All staff members,  including food and uniform volunteers submit full applications now and undergo complete background checks.  You can't say in one breath there should be adult, non-marching members on the busses and then say one might turn out to be a psychopath. 

Seriously. 

The procedure you mention pales in comparison to what I'm suggesting. And what my decades of experience tell me is needed. And I've only offered pointers for how to safely place adults on busses, since it seems your and others corps are already doing that. Literally just said I don't know the perfect solution here as an outsider.

If you aren't aware of previous leadership across drum corps history that matched some descriptions of psychopaths, then I can't help you.

Also can't help you if you think your background checks are enough to stop the worst violators. There is no amount of safeguarding that eliminates this threat and all too often the worst of the worst have found themselves in position of power. Anyone who says they can eliminate it entirely is lying to you. JF got through all the background checks and look how well that went for Vanguard.

I would carefully consider treading lightly in a thread with a survivor of abuse from the corps the thread is about. I'm engaging in a difficult topic about my own corps and I have lived experience of drum corps abuse that altered the course of my life.

Unless you have something constructive or positive to contribute, I won't be responding to you further here.

Edited May 18, 2023 by scheherazadesghost
grammar, clarity

[JimF-LowBari]

And background checks are only a deterrent if someone has been reported. When on church council in the 1990s our insurance company gave training. Reason was if the church was better protected then less chance of a big insurance payout.

Main thing I remember from that is abusers look for groups that don’t do checks or report abuse if found. IOW going on background checks isn’t 100%

Edited May 18, 2023 by JimF-LowBari

[scheherazadesghost]

16 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Main thing I remember from that is abusers look for groups that don’t do checks or report abuse if found.

I think drum corps has fallen into this category for most of its history, no? Even if they do checks now, many corps are behind on their policies and staff capacity to execute procedure when violated members need it most. Because that work is incredibly difficult. If I'm wrong about anyone's favorite corps, then show me that data, trained staff, and strategic planning to back it up.

You have to have someone who's supported survivors before leading these situations, not HR folks who are quicker to protect the company than the very customers/beneficiaries the company is publicly obligated to serve. Worst case scenario is to have untrained staff... not knowing what to do when a member needs you.

Edited May 18, 2023 by scheherazadesghost

[Terri Schehr]

33 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

And background checks are only a deterrent if someone has been reported. When on church council in the 1990s our insurance company gave training. Reason was if the church was better protected then less chance of a big insurance payout.

Main thing I remember from that is abusers look for groups that don’t do checks or report abuse if found. IOW going on background checks isn’t 100%

“That guy”  from five years ago would have passed every background check. 

[IllianaLancerContra]

51 minutes ago, Terri Schehr said:

“That guy”  from five years ago would have passed every background check. 

Therein lies a central problem- until someone does something inappropriate, they aren’t on any ‘do not hire’ list.  Everyone on DCP aid one swing away from being an axe-murderer.  But we allow all of them access to axes.