Per the California Attorney General Vanguard is operating illegally as a non profit

[GBugler]

7 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Both corps I've contacted about their retaining the abusers I included in my open letter. 😬

I tried messaging you but I understand why I am unable.

 

[scheherazadesghost]

2 minutes ago, GBugler said:

I tried messaging you but I understand why I am unable.

 

Reached out. Ty for pinging.

[Mello Dude]

2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

I've decided to keep my limited opinions about her to myself. Too many DCPers jump to her defense before taking a breath to understand that I have lived experience with drum corps abuse (that doesn't give me blanket authority by any means) but does mean I have direct, professional experience in handling such situations.

What I can say is hiring the daughter of such a person without taking significant, clear and transparent actions to keep her father away would be a risk to member safety. Not saying this didn't happen cause I wasn't there. Just seems like a risk I wouldn't be willing to take, but perhaps that's why I'm on the outside. Perhaps there's too much liability in even addressing it from an organizational standpoint.

She's at Phantom now.

Tough calls.  I hope they take (or took) precautions and hopefully told her as term of being there that daddy was persona non grata.

[Jeff Ream]

23 hours ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

Because mortgage fraud is a crime, and thus is public record. Employee disciplinary actions that don't rise to legal matters are not. A blacklist of instructors would put corps a huge legal risk for defamation/libel.

abusing a minor or sexual assualt is a crime too

[Jeff Ream]

15 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

You have to start somewhere.  

agree but too many people think thats the cure all. it's not

[Jeff Ream]

15 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

1. Was the mortgage blacklist something that the industry started because it thought it was a good idea, or did some shenanigans occur & the industry put the list in place as a result?

2. Are there laws or banking regulations that legally underpin the list?

3. What is the process for getting someone added to the list?  Does the big boss banker pick up their red phone & say ‘add Ream to the list’?   Or is there a process where you can provide a defense against being listed?

These are all considerations that Drum Corps will need to address before it creates the blacklist.  

1) yes.

2). some. risk however is a huge concern also.

it gets reported....probably CFPB now, before I believe it was HUD or FHFA. there can be hearings from what I have read. i don't know anyone tat had to deal with it personally. But I know of people caught in a reputed scam of referrals and kickbaks all out of the industry now.never went to court, but blackballed.

[Jeff Ream]

15 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Ok - Adults are the problem so let’s take this to its logical conclusion: Remove adults from the activity.   Corps are completely run by the members.   They raise the money, design & teach show, hire the transportation, cook the food, everything.  
 

For the record, I don’t think this would work too well. 

as i said no win win situation

[Jeff Ream]

14 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Consider the Hopacalypse - the legal system was involved & the perp, who pled guilty, didn't end up on the Sexual Offender list.  And he still hangs around the periphery of the activity.  

sadly the one victim whose testimony probably could have made the more serious charges stick decided not to testify

[MGCpimpOtimp]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

abusing a minor or sexual assualt is a crime too

Right, and when someone commits and is CONVICTED of a crime, it's public record, and you can put it on a  list.

When they get fired for those actions and that person doesn't get charged/convicted, if the org that puts them on a list can't prove it in a court of law, they can be civilly liable for defamation/libel. Because they're saying, to other future employers, that you committed this crime. And if they can't prove it (and unfortunately most of those cases lack the evidence to be able to do that), then the person on the list can sue.

Edited May 20, 2023 by MGCpimpOtimp

[scheherazadesghost]

8 hours ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

Right, and when someone commits and is CONVICTED of a crime, it's public record, and you can put it on a  list.

When they get fired for those actions and that person doesn't get charged/convicted, if the org that puts them on a list can't prove it in a court of law, they can be civilly liable for defamation/libel. Because they're saying, to other future employers, that you committed this crime. And if they can't prove it (and unfortunately most of those cases lack the evidence to be able to do that), then the person on the list can sue.

And don't "libel/defamation" only actually apply in the case that accusers are lying? In the case they're telling truth, they could still get dragged to court to prove it sure, which obviously, most survivors of abuse in drum corps don't need. But to be clear, just cause they're accused of lying doesn't mean they are. (I'm always posting with the intent of sharing info with other survivors.)

I'm just not so sure how helpful it is for the libel/defamation threat to keep cropping up without more nuanced dialogue about it. Without nuance, it continues to be a scare tactic that protects predators in the end.

The truth remains their best ally. Ultimately, we're talking about glorified bando-predators and their enablers protecting themselves by threatening use of this legal mechanism. Never forget that (not directed at MCG specifically.)

Edited May 20, 2023 by scheherazadesghost