DudleytheWest Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Tenoris4Jazz said: Oh good grief, I'm going to have to go there... From 1983 backwards, you were judged on your execution of your show 1st, the appeal to an audience 2nd, and the design 3rd. The point of the competition was... to perform well, score high, and have fun while accomplishing something, which might be a ring, a medal, and a flag. It was, above all else, A COMPETITION. Was that the best thing? Maybe not, but it worked for over 5 decades that way. Today, I don't see the point of scoring. Execution is all but abandoned, so what are they assigning scores to? Give 'em one score for the staff's design of a show, one score for doing it, and one score for whether the audience likes it or not. You only need three judges and they can use whole numbers... problem solved. I get what you are saying and agree with you, but I don't think the audience should have any influence on scores. That is a huge bias problem. To me, 1993 is the single greatest show there ever was from a design standpoint, and I believe it also the best show of '93 from an execution standpoint. I HATED it in 1993. I was so glad the Cadets won. Both were deserving and obviously the best corps IMO but the Cadets was certainly the crowd favorite. Star was something entirely special and it was a show that many (including me for a long time) just didn't get or appreciate. I also hate jazz. So I'm going to like Regiment, Cadets, and Vanguard more than Blue Dvils. It just can't be judged and really shouldn't. I think 2021 showed that it really isn't necessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DudleytheWest Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 hours ago, BlueStainGlass said: I wish I can insert a what gif for this. No execution score? That's literally on the score sheets how it's written and how it's executed. It is on the sheets, but it's entirely subjective. It is. These top corps are all as good as one another most years. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it that politics and bias don't play into judging. I used to call BS when people said that. Now, I'm with 'em. If Boston or Bluecoats won last year, no one would be saying BD should have won, just like no one is saying Boston or Bluecoats should have won. They all three were great and they all three were deserving. Very few years is there one clear front runner. Most years, 2 or more corps were good enough to win. Bias. Politics. Subjectivity. It's all such a huge part of judging. I'm saying BD didn't deserve it last year, or any other year, but I think Boston and Bloo were just as good last year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Guns Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, DudleytheWest said: It is on the sheets, but it's entirely subjective. It is. These top corps are all as good as one another most years. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it that politics and bias don't play into judging. I used to call BS when people said that. Now, I'm with 'em. If Boston or Bluecoats won last year, no one would be saying BD should have won, just like no one is saying Boston or Bluecoats should have won. They all three were great and they all three were deserving. Very few years is there one clear front runner. Most years, 2 or more corps were good enough to win. Bias. Politics. Subjectivity. It's all such a huge part of judging. I'm saying BD didn't deserve it last year, or any other year, but I think Boston and Bloo were just as good last year. BD, Boston, and Bloo were all DESERVING Champions. But BD EARNED it fair and square no excuses, same if Boston or Bloo won. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karuna Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Tenoris4Jazz said: Oh good grief, I'm going to have to go there... From 1983 backwards, you were judged on your execution of your show 1st, the appeal to an audience 2nd, and the design 3rd. The point of the competition was... to perform well, score high, and have fun while accomplishing something, which might be a ring, a medal, and a flag. It was, above all else, A COMPETITION. Was that the best thing? Maybe not, but it worked for over 5 decades that way. Today, I don't see the point of scoring. Execution is all but abandoned, so what are they assigning scores to? Give 'em one score for the staff's design of a show, one score for doing it, and one score for whether the audience likes it or not. You only need three judges and they can use whole numbers... problem solved. So..pre-1984 all the numbers were objective, measurable FACTS and afterwards just nonsense? ALL the numbers judging drum corps, band etc... are just opinions. None of them can be "measured". Scores then were just as arbitrary as they are now. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStainGlass Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 22 minutes ago, karuna said: So..pre-1984 all the numbers were objective, measurable FACTS and afterwards just nonsense? ALL the numbers judging drum corps, band etc... are just opinions. None of them can be "measured". Scores then were just as arbitrary as they are now. I want a recount for WGI prelims this year now since my numbers werent real 🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 50 minutes ago, karuna said: So..pre-1984 all the numbers were objective, measurable FACTS and afterwards just nonsense? ALL the numbers judging drum corps, band etc... are just opinions. None of them can be "measured". Scores then were just as arbitrary as they are now. It's all subjective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenoris4Jazz Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 8 hours ago, DudleytheWest said: I get what you are saying and agree with you, but I don't think the audience should have any influence on scores. That is a huge bias problem. To me, 1993 is the single greatest show there ever was from a design standpoint, and I believe it also the best show of '93 from an execution standpoint. I HATED it in 1993. I was so glad the Cadets won. Both were deserving and obviously the best corps IMO but the Cadets was certainly the crowd favorite. Star was something entirely special and it was a show that many (including me for a long time) just didn't get or appreciate. I also hate jazz. So I'm going to like Regiment, Cadets, and Vanguard more than Blue Dvils. It just can't be judged and really shouldn't. I think 2021 showed that it really isn't necessary. Bingo! Plus, Star's show in '93 was too much, too soon. It gave us a glimpse of the future, but it wasn't anything people wanted to see or hear in 1993. The audience shouldn't have any influence????? Then what the #### are they there for???? The audience response is why Phantom won the #### title in '08. Of COURSE there is going to be bias... we're human beings, it's part of who we are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenoris4Jazz Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 8 hours ago, karuna said: So..pre-1984 all the numbers were objective, measurable FACTS and afterwards just nonsense? ALL the numbers judging drum corps, band etc... are just opinions. None of them can be "measured". Scores then were just as arbitrary as they are now. ########. A gack is a gack... that's not an opinion. Go listen to BD '89 and tell me that's an opinion. Dropping a rifle is a measurable fact. Screwing up an interval, not having a straight line, missing a rest, blowing an entry, phasing... all objective mistakes that can be judged objectively. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenoris4Jazz Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 13 hours ago, BlueStainGlass said: I wish I can insert a what gif for this. No execution score? That's literally on the score sheets how it's written and how it's executed. It's on the sheet, but given some of the "marching" and visual performances I've seen over the past 10 years, it's obviously taking a huge back seat to the design. BD got perfect scores in visual in 2014 and I counted 5 missed forms in less than 2 minutes. Visual now is "That's a great design! Don't worry about all those bad lines and intervals and poor marching technique... what you're TRYING to do is really awesome!" Seriously... it's more participation trophy than actual critical assessment of what was really done. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waliman4444 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 9 hours ago, DudleytheWest said: I get what you are saying and agree with you, but I don't think the audience should have any influence on scores. That is a huge bias problem. To me, 1993 is the single greatest show there ever was from a design standpoint, and I believe it also the best show of '93 from an execution standpoint. I HATED it in 1993. I was so glad the Cadets won. Both were deserving and obviously the best corps IMO but the Cadets was certainly the crowd favorite. Star was something entirely special and it was a show that many (including me for a long time) just didn't get or appreciate. I also hate jazz. So I'm going to like Regiment, Cadets, and Vanguard more than Blue Dvils. It just can't be judged and really shouldn't. I think 2021 showed that it really isn't necessary. I can understand not liking jazz, but hating it?..What did jazz ever do to you?..LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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