Bluecoats, BD, and SA (TW: Sexual Assault)

[scheherazadesghost]

1 minute ago, Mello Dude said:

Ok, first I am not ignoring the victim-survivor, let's get that straight.  I am landing the blame on the individual rather than an entire organization.  The problem with what you are doing is you are rubber stamping without asking questions or holding appropriate parties responsible.  Also, this is why there needs to be an investigation into it before just rushing this person/org off the hangman like you are entirely too ready to do.  The worst outcome is ALWAYS when the innocent are convicted without due process.  Surely you can see the wisdom of that, right?  Let the victim have their day in court and the accused their day as well.  I get you are a survivor and bless you for being there for people that need you.  But, in your zeal or crusade for survivors don't let possibly innocent people or organizations get crushed without ANY sort of say.  That's not fair to anyone.

 

I wouldn't expect you to respond.  Just don't get locked into hammer mode.  

So long as we can advance this conversation without talk of threats I will respond.

I have not rubber stamped anything. I'm taking a victim-centric stance, which is one that has standing across multiple disciplines. It is not the innocent until proven guilty stance, intentionally, because such a stance often leaves victims in the dust.

I've also pointed out flaws in nearly all investigatory processes available here, which has not been addressed by you, but respectfully by @IllianaLancerContra and @KVG_DC, to which I responded, also respectfully.

I will acquiesce to say that equally, the worst outcome is both an innocent is accused and put through the ringer AND victims remain unheard. I've never not believed that, but assumptions can easily made by those who don't understand what a victim-centric approach is.

I will always land on the side of victim-survivors. Always. My first priority has been for organizations to do due diligence and research into victim-centric approaches and investigatory procedure. Perhaps doing so might actually move the needle, unlike everything else has been tried so far.

[jwillis35]

1 hour ago, Mello Dude said:

I don't know bout that.  Assuming they are 18 (adults), how much responsibility resides with the corps?  At what point does it become a law enforcement issue?  Seriously, young people are going to find away around everything no matter how many rules or even a system.  I'm just throwing this out there.  Now if they are under 18 that is COMPLETELY the organization. 

I agree with this. I know it's complicated but if the two involved were 18 or older then the person assaulted should have called the police immediately and filed chargers. It's what we do as adults. Providing this did happen the person who was assaulted should 1) call the police and file charges, 2) inform Bluecoats, and 3) inform parents and family. After charges are filed the family should seek legal council about their options.

Yes, these drum corps do take on the resposibility to protect these kids (even those 18 and older). If they are responsible for feeding them, housing them, instructing them, and getting them from town to town -- and clearly these kids are with the corps 24/7 for the duratrion of spring and summer -- then yes the law will require any organization to look out for their safety. Legally a good lawyer can go after the corps over procedures and protocols and other factors. So even with most of their marching members likely being 18 and up that doesn't completely absolve the corps' responsibility. But...the bulk of the efforts by the LAW will be to go after the ADULT who is being accused.  *The point is to make sure the LAW knows about it. Not DCP, not Twitter, not Facebook, and not the corps (not at first). You Have To Call The Police and file charges. This should have been done last year. Had that been done there is NO WAY Blue Devils would have even allowed this kid to audition (again assuming these accusations are true). And Bluecoats would have booted him on the spot and never let him back in. 

This happens at colleges and universities, unfortunately, and it is disgusting behavior. But if the student victim goes to the administration -- or a teacher or campus police -- the chances of the whole thing getting swept under the carpet are greater. If the victim calls the police and files charges and then also gets a lawyer...chances are good the criminal will pay the price because appropriate DNA testing will be done and the DAs office will begin an investigation. It was the former of these solutions where the charges were passed from G.A. to Coach to Athletic Director to VP to President that ultimately caused the Penn State situation to spiral out of control. 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by jwillis35

[Mello Dude]

12 minutes ago, MandarinMom said:

My issue with what you said is that you expect the victim to have evidence. Sexual assault does not always produce evidence of a nonconsensual act. Even when it does, the victim does not always speak out right away. This is why many survivors don't speak up.

That's why you question everyone, thus investigation.

[MandarinMom]

4 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

I agree with this. I know it's complicated but if the two involved were 18 or older then the person assaulted should have called the police immediately and filed chargers. It's what we do as adults. Providing this did happen the person who was assaulted should 1) call the police and file charges, 2) inform Bluecoats, and 3) inform parents and family. After charges are filed the family should seek legal council about their options.

Yes, these drum corps do take on the resposibility to protect these kids (even those 18 and older). If they are responsible for feeding them, housing them, instructing them, and getting them from town to town -- and clearly these kids are with the corps 24/7 for the duratrion of spring and summer -- then yes the law will require any organization to look out for their safety. Legally a good lawyer can go after the corps over procedures and protocols and other factors. So even with most of their marching members likely being 18 and up that doesn't completely absolve the corps' responsibility. But...the bulk of the efforts by the LAW will be to go after the ADULT who is being accused.  *The point is to make sure the LAW knows about it. Not DCP, not Twitter, not Facebook, and not the corps (not at first). You Have To Call The Police and file charges. This should have been done last year. Had that been done there is NO WAY Blue Devils would have even allowed this kid to audition (again assuming these accusations are true). And Bluecoats would have booted him on the spot and never let him back in. 

This happens at colleges and universities, unfortunately, and it is disgusting behavior. But if the student victim goes to the administration -- or a teacher or campus police -- the chances of the whole thing getting swept under the carpet are greater. If the victim calls the police and files charges and then also gets a lawyer...chances are good the criminal will pay the price because appropriate DNA testing will be done and the DAs office will begin an investigation. It was the former of these solutions where the charges were passed from G.A. to Coach to Athletic Director to VP to President that ultimately caused the Penn State situation to spiral out of control. 

 

Have you ever experienced sexual assault? Because if a victim wants to go forward to police right away, in the middle of finals week, I support them 100%. But to expect them to have the support and evidence to come forward, go through invasive exams, and possibly miss their finals is extremely unfair. 

[scheherazadesghost]

4 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

This should have been done last year.

I really, really appreciate your thorough response.

My only thought here is that a victim centric approach would instead read:

"The victim may not have had the capacity to do this a year ago. They may not have known what to do, understood what happened to them, had appropriate support systems, or evidence, or they feared retaliation. Had they been able to step forward..."

[Mello Dude]

7 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

I agree with this. I know it's complicated but if the two involved were 18 or older then the person assaulted should have called the police immediately and filed chargers. It's what we do as adults. Providing this did happen the person who was assaulted should 1) call the police and file charges, 2) inform Bluecoats, and 3) inform parents and family. After charges are filed the family should seek legal council about their options.

Yes, these drum corps do take on the resposibility to protect these kids (even those 18 and older). If they are responsible for feeding them, housing them, instructing them, and getting them from town to town -- and clearly these kids are with the corps 24/7 for the duratrion of spring and summer -- then yes the law will require any organization to look out for their safety. Legally a good lawyer can go after the corps over procedures and protocols and other factors. So even with most of their marching members likely being 18 and up that doesn't completely absolve the corps' responsibility. But...the bulk of the efforts by the LAW will be to go after the ADULT who is being accused.  *The point is to make sure the LAW knows about it. Not DCP, not Twitter, not Facebook, and not the corps (not at first). You Have To Call The Police and file charges. This should have been done last year. Had that been done there is NO WAY Blue Devils would have even allowed this kid to audition (again assuming these accusations are true). And Bluecoats would have booted him on the spot and never let him back in. 

This happens at colleges and universities, unfortunately, and it is disgusting behavior. But if the student victim goes to the administration -- or a teacher or campus police -- the chances of the whole thing getting swept under the carpet are greater. If the victim calls the police and files charges and then also gets a lawyer...chances are good the criminal will pay the price because appropriate DNA testing will be done and the DAs office will begin an investigation. It was the former of these solutions where the charges were passed from G.A. to Coach to Athletic Director to VP to President that ultimately caused the Penn State situation to spiral out of control. 

 

The problem is culture.  People don't ever want to come forward when it happens.  THAT needs to change.  If anything is going to move things forward is instilling in people to report what happened without shame.  

[SJugster]

I’m not getting into any of those things most here are. I feel I am not equipped well enough to give an opinion so I will sit this one out.

With that said has there been much conversation about what BD is gonna do?

[mcjordansc]

I’m sure the guy will say it was consensual and the others in the room will say yes, they were in bed together. I feel bad for the girl because this is a difficult thing to discuss. She couldn’t tell the Bluecoats or her parents when it happened. She probably, incorrectly, felt she was somewhat responsible for what he did and his defense will be she didn’t stop me. Very bad situation for her. Now she is making it public, which is good, but if the guy stays with the Blue Devils she should make a report with Indianapolis police and have him arrested when he comes to town. If he raped her he needs to suffer the legal consequences. 

[BlueStainGlass]

The only thing I will say to this and I won't open this topic again

There is a reason there are anonymous or not whistleblowers on every corps, Wgi group, or circuits site. After a report is made an investigation is done by the group and an independent investigator. Now the problem at hand has two things that can happen. A factual statement can be reported and a terrible person is removed from the activity OR made up bologna can be reported and an investigation finds it to be not accurate. 

My experience is someone who threatened to do whatever it takes to ruin my life (yes I have screenshots) submitting BS accusations trying to get me removed from a group and fired from my non band job. All of our organizations cooperated with investigators and was deemed that the report was made up, full of lies, and rumors with the purpose to cause harm. So the only complaint I have is that somebodys name was released before an investigation and has damaged their name(if ever found innocent). This could lead to loss of damages and open the accuser up to a lawsuit (we were going to sue the person but there was no monetary loss so it would be thrown out). 

If something happens report it but putting it on Twitter could hurt more. (someone from Spirit did this earlier this year about a member at crown) And by no means do I think that every group will take reports at face value but I hope they do because it needs to stop. 

[jwillis35]

10 minutes ago, MandarinMom said:

Have you ever experienced sexual assault? Because if a victim wants to go forward to police right away, in the middle of finals week, I support them 100%. But to expect them to have the support and evidence to come forward, go through invasive exams, and possibly miss their finals is extremely unfair. 

I get what you are saying but sexual assault and dealing with it immediately is much more important than DCI Finals.