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I'm trying real hard to think of a way to respond to this that does not come off as insulting but I just can't think of anything. So this is the best I've got......... What you have just said in the above is absolutely stupid. It's also just plain MEAN! "They shouldn't use the same name because they are not at the same level they once were"? I'm sorry, but that is completely moronic and juvenile. It's a good thing the Blue Stars didn't take to your philosophy. Thankfully, your opinion is not important. The current "VKYAO" organization is called "The Velvet Kinghts" and nothing you say is going to ever change that. Derailed....

This is the crux of the argument, IMO. The history of drum corps is one mostly of Darwinism, where only the strong survive. Corps with the business sense to thrive financially continue to exist while corps without the business know-how fold: it's really that simple. Blue Devils, SCV, Mandarins, etc. have been able to figure out how to continually travel to the east coast and mid-west wile still being financially solvent. Many corps have folded because they could not financially sustain themselves. As much as I would LOVE to have DCI Finals on the west coast; as much as I think California (Southern or Northern) is a beautiful destination for drum corps fans; as much as I want to play the "but BD, SCV, Mandarins, Troopers, Blue Knights, Crusaders, PC, Impulse, VK, etc. have to travel a lot every year" card; as easy as it would be to use attendance numbers from 2007 as the most attended DCI Championships in decades. DCI should do NOTHING, including holding Championships on the West Coast, that isn't the be best financial interests of the organization. That's really the end of this debate: if holding Championships in San Francisco is not in DCI best financially interests, then it shouldn't be done.

Basing your argument on how many championships have been won in a given region eliminates the concept of practicality. At that point it becomes about what is fair, or what individual corps do or don't deserve more than it is about practicality. So no, it is not practical to have championships on the West coast. Would it be nice to do if it were practical, sure. Don't get me wrong, I hate it for the west coast corps, but the fact is, the western half of our country is big and empty. There aren't anywhere near as many people, much less corps between Kansas City and California as there are from Kansas City to DC. That's the reality of living on the West Coast in general. If you want to go anywhere that isn't on the west coast, you're going to travel farther. Stuff is more spread out on that half of the country. Again, DCI has survived largely due to savvy business operations. Making the majority of the member base, not to mention fan base travel twice as far to championships, simply to satisfy the minority is just not good business sense.

Hey, whoa everybody. Hold it a minute. Time out. *whistling through my fingers* I've got something that will settle this whole (somewhat comical) dispute. Daniel mantioned "The VK Brand". Ok, lets talk about that but lets use a different comparison than Blue Stars. I'm an open Madison Scouts fan so how about a comparison of their brand? Wait, hold it. Sssshhhh. I'm not done yet. You think I'm going to talk about their success along with their ups and downs, don't you? No, I'm not. Instead, I'm going to talk about DCP. What? (entertained yet?). LOL! This is fun. Ok, SO! *cracking my knuckles* There are some corps that you can't get through a single thread without them being mentioned. Due to a similar brand as VK (that being the "the entertainment factor"), you can't get through most threads or most days on DCP without someone turning the conversation toward Madison (see? I just did it.). VK, though not quite as popular of a discussion is an interesting animal because they do manage to pop up in discussion more than most (if not all) corps currently active in Open Class and as we've seen in this very thread, sometimes under some very passionate opinions (both positive and negative). So, do you want me to prove that VKYAO is keeping the "VK brand alive" ? Look at this very thread. Here is this little tiny Open Class corps that didn't even go to Indy last year. Harmless and hardly a threat to any corps in this activity and look at all the attention they are getting on the WORLD CLASS forum. Only the true spirit of the brand known as "The Velvet Knights" could possibly do that. Yeah, VK is still alive. Thank you VKYAO for keeping something that is very unique and special alive in the drum corps activity, as humble of a feat as that is for you at the moment.

OK so this is one of my all time favorite Corps - Ever. 1979 was my favorite offering from North Star. Between the fun arrangements, Jerry Noonan's domination of the Soprano Bugle, and the complete awesomeness that was the "Chrome Wall" it was the complete package. I saw it live in Denver that year and have it on my play list both in my car and my office. If you haven't seen it or heard it - do yourself a favor and buy it!

Look back through the posts. Someone asks "doesn't VK still exist" and he says "no". Then in a later post says "they should not use the name". Tell me that isnt just plain mean. Yeah, you're right. I get it. Still doesn't make it right though. I'll back off.

When I was looking at this Wikipedia page, I noticed that the following DCI World Championship finalist corps don't have their own Wikipedia page. Perhaps some DCP folk can help take care of this. Please post a note if you're interested in working on a certain corps' page and others can offer to join you to help it get created. 27th Lancers Bridgemen Suncoast Sound Sky Ryders Guardsmen Muchachos North Star Oakland Crusaders Seneca Optimists Black Knights De La Salle Oaklands Des Plaines Vanguard Dutch Boy Purple Lancers Royal Crusaders Stockton Commodores

What you have said here makes about as much relevant sense as the following mush... Fire engines are red because they have 8 wheels and 4 people ride it. 8 and 4 is 12. Twelve inches is a foot. A foot is 30cm. 30cm is a ruler. Queen Elizabeth was a ruler. Queen Elizabeth was the name of a ship that sailed in the sea. Fish swim in the sea. Fish have fins. The Finns fought the Russians. And that's why Fire Engines are Red. Blah! The"Future Corps" or the "Magic Kingdom Korps played on "drums and bugles". G BUGLES as a matter of fact. But who cares? I doubt anyone (besides you) gives a dried cat crap what you "call" those two groups. The fact is, they are awesome videos that carry just as much relevance to the activity as anything else posted on this thread. Oh, and as for your reasoning that the "Disney Corps are not drum corps because they no longer exist? WTH is the relevant logic in that statement? Completely irrelevant to anything. If we go by your reasoning on that issue, I guess the 27th Lancers were not a drum corps either because they no longer exist? Blah! Who cares? Call them what you want. Not the point at all. Oh, and lastly. The Disney Corps were not "kids". They were pros.

I'm a nerd so I ran some of the numbers. Looking at the top 25 world class corps, its clear that a west coast championships is not practical for the corps we currently have involved in the circuit. The total and average miles driven would be nearly doubled, 2 corps and their fans would be asked to travel over 3,000 miles, and in general, it would require far more travel in contrast to any of the other 3 scenarios. Championships in the DC area (hypothetical east coast location) would also be impractical in comparison, although much more advantageous to more groups than a Santa Clara championships. The lowest total number of miles traveled would be, not surprisingly, where championships currently reside in indianapolis. There is a solid argument, however for a championships somewhere like Kansas City. The average miles traveled would be a little higher, but there is a bit more parity in the numbers traveled by each corps. Bottom line is, Indy is where championships are, and will be for the foreseeable future. It is, in fact, centrally located for the existing corps in the DCI circuit. There are far more corps on the eastern side of the country than on the west. Its is unfortunate for the west coast corps who often have to travel a bit more, but the fact is, that's the problem with a national championship. You can't please everyone. From the corps base of operations, to Indianapolis: Cadets 622 miles Blue Devils 2229 miles Cavaliers 187 miles Crown 595 miles Phantom Regiment 269 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 2282 miles Bluecoats 302 miles Crusaders 975 miles Blue Stars 463 miles Madison Scouts 320 miles Blue Knights 1085 miles Spirit 534 miles Glassmen 222 miles Troopers 1078 miles Academy 1690 miles Colts 375 miles Crossmen 1173 miles Pacific Crest 2042 miles Mandarins 2164 miles Teal Sound 849 miles Blue Devils B 2229 miles Seattle Cascades 2246 miles Vanguard Cadets 2282 miles Jersey Surf 672 miles Spartans 995 miles Total miles = 23,882 Average number of miles driven = 955.28 Lowest number of miles driven = 187 Highest number of miles driven = 2282 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 11 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 7 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0 Same numbers if championships were in Santa Clara: Cadets 2880 miles Blue Devils 54 miles Cavaliers 2158 miles Crown 2684 miles Phantom Regiment 2116 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 0 miles Bluecoats 2535 miles Crusaders 3128 miles Blue Stars 2104 miles Madison Scouts 2122 miles Blue Knights 1301 miles Spirit 2436 miles Glassmen 2388 miles Troopers 1173 miles Academy 723 miles Colts 2030 miles Crossmen 1696 miles Pacific Crest 372 miles Mandarins 118 miles Teal Sound 2759 miles Blue Devils B 54 miles Seattle Cascades 839 miles Vanguard Cadets 0 miles Jersey Surf 2935 miles Spartans 3146 miles Total miles = 41,751 Average number of miles driven = 1,670 Lowest number of miles driven = 0 Highest number of miles driven = 3,146 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 17 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 11 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 2 Kansas City: Cadets 1103 miles Blue Devils 1785 miles Cavaliers 522 miles Crown 972 miles Phantom Regiment 480 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 1842 miles Bluecoats 783 miles Crusaders 1431 miles Blue Stars 468 miles Madison Scouts 458 miles Blue Knights 599 miles Spirit 802 miles Glassmen 735 miles Troopers 814 miles Academy 1194 miles Colts 393 miles Crossmen 812 miles Pacific Crest 1595 miles Mandarins 1719 miles Teal Sound 1188 miles Blue Devils B 1785 miles Seattle Cascades 1890 miles Vanguard Cadets 1842 miles Jersey Surf 1155 miles Spartans 1449 miles Total miles = 27,786 Average number of miles driven = 1,111 Lowest number of miles driven = 393 Highest number of miles driven = 1890 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 13 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 0 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0 Baltimore MD (lets pick a spot central to the East Coast just for giggles): Cadets 142 miles Blue Devils 2798 miles Cavaliers 717 miles Crown 479 miles Phantom Regiment 789 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 2885 miles Bluecoats 339 miles Crusaders 410 miles Blue Stars 982 miles Madison Scouts 848 miles Blue Knights 1672 miles Spirit 699 miles Glassmen 472 miles Troopers 1827 miles Academy 878 miles Colts 878 miles Crossmen 1639 miles Pacific Crest 2643 miles Mandarins 2732 miles Teal Sound 749 miles Blue Devils B 2798 miles Seattle Cascades 2765 miles Vanguard Cadets 2885 miles Jersey Surf 119 miles Spartans 428 miles Total miles = 30,775 Average number of miles driven = 1,231 Lowest number of miles driven = 119 Highest number of miles driven = 2885 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 10 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 6 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0

The Blue Stars spent a lot of years living in the shadow of the Div I years from back in the '70s. Some of those years were good and some not so good; but, they didn't stop when things would sometimes seem like "what the h**l" and the goal of returning the organization to Div I and top 12 status was attained. The members of the Velvet Knights are probably feeling the same way with the expectation to look and be what once was.

perfect fit for your group!

My comments were in response to your continued lack of respect for us "dinos", the senior circuit, corps who don't tow the line (e.g., touring, amount of shows etc.) and pretty much anything pre-90s.

So hard to decide. Suncoast Sound, Freelancers, Argonne Rebels, Skyryders, Bridgemen, and I wish I could have seen the legendary Belleville Black Knights in person.... But honestly, 27th Lancers came to mind first.

I have been excited by numerous APRIL FOOLS JOKES put on DCP over the years. I am a alumnus of Dutch Boy and I realize this was in poor taste. Please except my apology.

The North Star from North Shore, Massachusetts

they spend within their means, even less than their means. We've all seen stories about Pioneer and those old busses, and I'm sure even with repairs it may be cheaper than leasing. They dont go out and order new guard uniforms at mid season every year. Sure, ok maybe the pay has chased off big name staff, but it's kept them alive. There is more to success at the World Class level than placement, and if you really look, some of the best run corps financially are not the ones at the top of the competitive rankings.

1979 North Star is DCI's DVD Spotlight of the Week

Oh my God I like waffles!

Bmjfelts1988, are you danielray's crazy uncle? Do you think I should hold on to my Egyptian cotton futures?

yet it's practical that the state with the most DCI titles, has received finals in their state ONCE...just ONCE...in 40 years, and that the fans out there have only seen August action twice when you consider the original tour of champions gigs however many years ago. ########. Look, I live in PA. I love having Allentown late in the year. But if that were to change in order to give Cali some August love, i'd be all for it. I'd make a vacation out of it when my daughter is old enough. I'm sure I'll be back to Indy before the current deal is up, but I'm not chomping at the bit to go there again, and certainly not for 10 years in a row. If the West Coast Corps keep having to suck it up year after year, that is, IMO, the greatest crime in DCI history. "oh the poor East Coast corps" blah blah blah ########....spare me. if Hop can find the money every year for new guard uniforms mid season, he can find the money to go to Cali for finals.

question... given comments you have made in the past about Drum Corps leadership not reading DCP because it's full of crap.....what good does you calling this out on a place you yourself mock do?

rare that it is that I defend Daniel on ......well.....anything....one thing he is correct on. Blue Stars did have a good retention rate, and many of the kids that were D3 were there when they finally cracked the top 12. Other than that,feel free to fry him.

Really? Facebook reaches more people in a quicker amount of time: Facebook updates can be read immediately with smartphone notifications, whereas DCP is, IMO, a fringe community of drum corps and not even a wide/diverse representation of drum corps' fandom.

I would think if someone were legitimately interested in following ANY corps it would be very little effort to click the corps website monthly to check for camp updates, follow them on facebook, etc. It's pretty disingenuous, IMO, to say you want corps updates while making little to no effort to search for information. If I like the Cleveland Indians and only expect to learn of roster moves and game states via espn's homepage then I'm either 1) REALLY naive, or 2) not really that interested in learning updates of Cleveland Indians since I'm not taking the 90 seconds to go to their homepage and scan their front page for updates.

This is true. I think there is FAR more chance at harm when you let members have carte blanche on internet postings, vs laying low, controlling information release, etc. I see a lot of PC updates via facebook, and I'm not even an active fan of theirs (I have friends on their staff who repost PC's facebook updates).

ThunderBarn That's pretty good. I'll have to use that one. I'd heard lots of names for the place, the echo, etc but it does look like a big barn. (And yes I have been to finals there. Try going during the week when the place is 3/4 empty. Stuff bounced around for what seemed like eternity.)

That's good news! Thank you and I hope others follow your lead.

I'd resurrect The Bridgemen because I feel like the activity has trended so far away from their brand of pure entertainment.

The driving distances are interesting, but it's not as though corps travel straight to finals from their home towns. The real story is total mileage over the course of the season (average mileage per day would be interesting as well). Do corps keep records of this sort of thing? I've always been curious about what the mileage of a west coast corps would look like compared to a midwestern or eastern one. It seems to me as though mileage for the corps would be fairly even up until finals. Yes, the western corps have to travel across country, but the eastern corps are on the move as well, just within a more limited area. It seems like it's the trip back west after finals that would put the left coast corps over the top in terms of mileage. But I could be way off. Just guessing. And does a western finals really reduce the mileage of the western corps? In 2007 they still had to go as far east as Allentown and then return back west. A western finals would be more for fans who never get a chance to see late season corps, or parents who might not otherwise get to see their kids perform during DCI week. Ideally some sort of rotation would be in place, but that's clearly unpractical.

Except for its famous auto race, what else is Indianapolis known for? Santa Clara is within an hour’s drive of San Francisco, Santa Cruz Beach and Boardwalk, Monterey/Carmel, Oakland and less than two hours to the wine country of Napa. Santa Clara is also the center of Silicon Valley, so its hotel/restaurant infrastructure is second to none. Even in August it doesn’t get extremely hot and is NEVER humid. West Coast fans, unless they are willing to travel thousands of miles, never get to see their favorite corps in late season form. A DCI title show in Santa Clara would allow DCI to split itself into two, sending half the corps via a southern route TX, NM, AZ, So Cal, Santa Clara and the other half the northern route ID, WA, OR, Santa Clara. There are literally thousands of fans waiting for such a tour. If the new 49er stadium becomes available, having a championship held there is a no brainer. How about in five years to celebrate SCV’s 50th anniversary?!

I just want to point out that the gas prices are much higher in CA than the rest of the country.

Well it looks so far like the TOP 3, Most want back competing again are: 1 -- 27th Lancers 2 -- SoCal Kingsmen 3 -- Bridgemen Wow, any of them would be Fantastic. But, there were so many others mentioned that were so good also. They ARE missed by so many. A tribute to what they gave us ALL. Just the mention of their name's, bring back so many Memories. Here it is 30, 40, or more years later, and we STILL think of them ALL.

Yeah, well you are wrong. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

If there was more presence, people here would complain that the corps was over-hyped and should have waited for their show to speak for them. Unless they're a perennial top-12 corps. Then it's being transparent and fan-friendly. Tell me it isn't true.

In these two cases, I don't think they are isolationist at all. I think they are modest and prefer to wait and let their product on the field speak for itself. (i.e.: Speak softly and carry a big drum stick.)

That will happen when the city of Santa Clara cuts DCI a better deal than the city of Indianapolis.

Funny how everyone views this. Although I doubt it will happen. I have 2 complaints. 1. Making it easy for the east coast and midwest corps and sticking the transportation cost on the west coats corps is hardly fair. The top WC corps can deal with the finances of this reasonable well. The smaller WC corps and Open class corps (that do not have feeder corps) have a harder time making it each and every year, especially as gas prices go up year on year. So, to keep everyone happy about keeping the show in Indy, I suggest those who want it to stay donate some funds to the west coast corps who need the support.LOL 2. a change every once in a while would do DCI some good. I beleive there is a bigger audience potential in Northern CA if it is there maybe every 5th year or so. For those of you who bring up the tuba problems, that is southern CA, not the bay area. This would also help the west coast corps as the shows they sponsor, like in the pacific NW would get a few more of the bigger corps and provide a large audience. swinging from denver through WA, OR would make a cool tour as well. Free day in Seattle or Portland is a way cool place to stop on the way down to CA. Just a thought for those of you who do not volunteer to work on putting on drum corps shows. Everyone needs a change every now and then. That is human nature. Just saying.

yet West Coast corps do it every year

LOVE seeing all the Suncoast love. SURPRISE! That'd be my pick as well.

Suncoast Sound

I won't pick the Bridgemen or Kilties becuse they're still in existence, so I'll go with the Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights.

Bridgemen, 27th Lancers, etc. Great corps from the past I would love to see out there again. But what I would rather do: Recreate DCI where everyone could afford to field a corps and not charge it's membership an arm and a leg. Maybe have oh, American Legion or VFW help sponsor. Then drum corps would be an activity for everyone and there would be a local corps a kid could march with.....

27th Lancers and a close second...Hawthorne Muchachos

Well..those HS stadiums are used for a LOT more than just football games. Football may have been their raison initiale d'etre, but now the use for that facility extends well beyond football. The issue -- just as it is now -- would be funding. If the music department is already largely self-supporting through boosters, then it would probably keep going. If the school is funded entirely through the school, I could see school boards slashing funding in the absence of football. I agree with Piper -- drum corps and HS MB are all part of the same food chain. If competitive HS MBs disappear, it would severely impact drum corps ( in a multitude of ways).

Drum corps would likely turn into small community-based organizations mostly performing at local/patriotic functions. Sounds like some dinos might really want to look into ways we can get rid of football!

That's wild! Like a pack of bulldogs struttin' around.

Such love for a Silver medalist!! Such a warm and raucous ovation! I know the scores were close but that Bloomington crowd really showed both corps the respect they deserved!! Makes you wonder what the crowd saved for the first place corps...whoever that was???