TOP 10 things IN 2009 we think but dare not say!

[jmc5682]

What a great year! I thought almost every corps was better than 2008 with a couple of exceptions (Phantom, Madison) and what a deserving, dominating win for the Blue Crew!

[Noname]

What a great year! I thought almost every corps was better than 2008 with a couple of exceptions (Phantom, Madison) and what a deserving, dominating win for the Blue Crew!

What the heck? A post that has sense and doesn't come off at all demeaning? DCP is changing, it isn't DCP anymore.

[fsubone]

Did you see it live?

Yes I did, just my read on the show. I'm just making observations, establishing opinions, sorry if you feel some need to tear down anyone who tries to speak ill of the precious Blue Devils, i'm not a fan, but whatever

[salad315]

Well that's certainly an easy way out.

Yup...you know writing well thought out, cohesive, and sensible posts gets old after a while, so I thought I would try something else. Its kind of fun

[Plan9]

Yes I did, just my read on the show. I'm just making observations, establishing opinions, sorry if you feel some need to tear down anyone who tries to speak ill of the precious Blue Devils, i'm not a fan, but whatever

Whoa, slow down there.... I wasn't tearing down anything you said. I was simply asking if you'd seen the show live which in fact, changed many opinions of BD's show this year after earlier viewings on FN. However, I will mention that I (personally) could never say "I'm not a fan" of any corps as a blanket statement. I enjoy every corps and I see no advantage in slamming any corps who is competing in this very competitive field. I did mention early in the season that Crown's weakness was their guard and Cadets weakness was their battery but it wasn't done in a belligerent way.

Finally, anyone who played or plays trombone at FSU is OK in my book!

[mirrormen]

Well, it seems many have left the "dare not say" agenda for a more, "here is ten things I think about this year." So here are ten of my many thoughts.

1. I never tired of Crown's show and still want to see it again and again. Hate that I only have DVD now as opposed to live. Wanting to see it over and over whether I "got all it" or not, is that a sign of good GE?

2. I did not want to see Blue Devils again after seeing it once. I liked it. I thought they performed well, as they always do. Not eager to see it on DVD either.

3. Loved SCV and glad they were well received by the audience and judges. It was a risk in my view. Do think they placed where they should have. Maybe one place higher. I am curious how brass judges compare SCV/all of the groups relating to demand musically and visually. Cadets at one extreme of simultaneous demand SCV and Devils at the other. Just curious.

4. I remember two quotes from the past when I think of Cadets 2009 show. Steve Rondinaro saying (ten or so years ago???) "This place is electric!" and Michael Cesario saying "Its the achievement of the performer." I really liked Cadets. I have always liked this type of show from them. They like Cavies are in a tough position of having to reinvent themselves. Both revert back to what has worked for them, rightfully so. This show was hard. Amazing to think thyy can drum spin and play while doing that drill. Exciting but not quite as electric as it once was. The achievement is amazing. Not sure where they go from here though.

5. Cavies. I am just tired of it. They are DCI's most "perfect" executing corps. Now what.

6. Drill is no longer that important. Color guard carries all the visual/GE captions now. Glassmen, Bluecoats, and yes Blue Devils have odd drill to me. It has some arrival moments, with rare brass/perc drill movement effect. For the most part, their visual offerings seem more like getting the brass and perc out of the way for guard staging. Brass and perc drill is disjunct, doesn't seemed connected a lot of the time, seems to not tie into the big picture. How is this judged? Like comparing such various approached to simultaneous demand, does judging visual become so subjective that judges can't be held accountable?

7. While Troopers were so much better, I thought I was seeing and hearing a different corps than other people. The music was humorous to me. The salsa like motive that kept coming back through the show? It seemed very out of place. The cowboy movie filmscore quotes seemed very forced. I tried. I really tried. I have seen the show twice on fan network to see what I missed. Same reaction as seeing it several times live. Though I thought they completely dumbed down their show and concepts (maybe it is necessary for judges now) , Colts should have been in with no doubt to me.

8. The argument of what is good music is a debate in drum corps and band. I have feelings on many fronts of the issue. I do believe some are more qualified than others to argue this aspect, however, sometimes I hear a corps or band and just struggle to stay in my seat because of the music, or actually lack of anything my educated brain/ears identify as music. Crossmen's audio was that for me this year. What was that? Really. No matter what anyone could say, I don't get it and I don't know why they made these choices. What did music judges say on their tapes? Revisited the show on the network. Couldn't take it.

9. I was eager to see Spirit because of all of the negative rumors. I was pleasantly surprised. I am glad I got to see it in Salem because it definitely was more suited for outside compared to inside in my view. Like the rest of the audience in Salem, I was on my feet before the show ended. I thought the intro was a cool idea but the vocal cues moved too slow. The opener was OK. The ballad was great. The middle of the closer lost me. The ending was exciting. I have also gone back and watched this on the fan network. Seems too many ideas in 10 minutes. Thought they played much better than several corps that were ahead of them.

10. Last thought. A few years ago BOA and WGI seemed to move more away from groups having the same ordinal in each caption and sub caption. I know sometimes that could or should be the case. DCI still suffers from that especially with those corps that are clearly not going to make finals. Since they were my #9 subject, I will use Spirit as my example. They sounded so much better and played together so much better than groups ahead of them (brass and perc captions) yet they did not get rewarded. Seems the closer you are to making finals the more your captions may end up where they should be. In 08 Spirit's perc took a huge dive the last week or so. This year, perc and brass. If a judge does react to the fact that Spirit's music was so much better than their visual, judge(s) could cause a two, three, four placement jump. Judges rarely risk being that person. Seems that since they will not make finals, what does it matter. No matter what, should the members and staff not be clearly rewarded for what they do well despite where the will end up placement wise? Colts visually much cleaner than many corps ahead of them, why the placement? Scouts perc were extremely weak, why that not reflected? I could go on. I won't.

[euponitone]

Well, it seems many have left the "dare not say" agenda for a more, "here is ten things I think about this year." So here are ten of my many thoughts.

1. I never tired of Crown's show and still want to see it again and again. Hate that I only have DVD now as opposed to live. Wanting to see it over and over whether I "got all it" or not, is that a sign of good GE?

2. I did not want to see Blue Devils again after seeing it once. I liked it. I thought they performed well, as they always do. Not eager to see it on DVD either.

3. Loved SCV and glad they were well received by the audience and judges. It was a risk in my view. Do think they placed where they should have. Maybe one place higher. I am curious how brass judges compare SCV/all of the groups relating to demand musically and visually. Cadets at one extreme of simultaneous demand SCV and Devils at the other. Just curious.

4. I remember two quotes from the past when I think of Cadets 2009 show. Steve Rondinaro saying (ten or so years ago???) "This place is electric!" and Michael Cesario saying "Its the achievement of the performer." I really liked Cadets. I have always liked this type of show from them. They like Cavies are in a tough position of having to reinvent themselves. Both revert back to what has worked for them, rightfully so. This show was hard. Amazing to think thyy can drum spin and play while doing that drill. Exciting but not quite as electric as it once was. The achievement is amazing. Not sure where they go from here though.

5. Cavies. I am just tired of it. They are DCI's most "perfect" executing corps. Now what.

6. Drill is no longer that important. Color guard carries all the visual/GE captions now. Glassmen, Bluecoats, and yes Blue Devils have odd drill to me. It has some arrival moments, with rare brass/perc drill movement effect. For the most part, their visual offerings seem more like getting the brass and perc out of the way for guard staging. Brass and perc drill is disjunct, doesn't seemed connected a lot of the time, seems to not tie into the big picture. How is this judged? Like comparing such various approached to simultaneous demand, does judging visual become so subjective that judges can't be held accountable?

7. While Troopers were so much better, I thought I was seeing and hearing a different corps than other people. The music was humorous to me. The salsa like motive that kept coming back through the show? It seemed very out of place. The cowboy movie filmscore quotes seemed very forced. I tried. I really tried. I have seen the show twice on fan network to see what I missed. Same reaction as seeing it several times live. Though I thought they completely dumbed down their show and concepts (maybe it is necessary for judges now) , Colts should have been in with no doubt to me.

8. The argument of what is good music is a debate in drum corps and band. I have feelings on many fronts of the issue. I do believe some are more qualified than others to argue this aspect, however, sometimes I hear a corps or band and just struggle to stay in my seat because of the music, or actually lack of anything my educated brain/ears identify as music. Crossmen's audio was that for me this year. What was that? Really. No matter what anyone could say, I don't get it and I don't know why they made these choices. What did music judges say on their tapes? Revisited the show on the network. Couldn't take it.

9. I was eager to see Spirit because of all of the negative rumors. I was pleasantly surprised. I am glad I got to see it in Salem because it definitely was more suited for outside compared to inside in my view. Like the rest of the audience in Salem, I was on my feet before the show ended. I thought the intro was a cool idea but the vocal cues moved too slow. The opener was OK. The ballad was great. The middle of the closer lost me. The ending was exciting. I have also gone back and watched this on the fan network. Seems too many ideas in 10 minutes. Thought they played much better than several corps that were ahead of them.

10. Last thought. A few years ago BOA and WGI seemed to move more away from groups having the same ordinal in each caption and sub caption. I know sometimes that could or should be the case. DCI still suffers from that especially with those corps that are clearly not going to make finals. Since they were my #9 subject, I will use Spirit as my example. They sounded so much better and played together so much better than groups ahead of them (brass and perc captions) yet they did not get rewarded. Seems the closer you are to making finals the more your captions may end up where they should be. In 08 Spirit's perc took a huge dive the last week or so. This year, perc and brass. If a judge does react to the fact that Spirit's music was so much better than their visual, judge(s) could cause a two, three, four placement jump. Judges rarely risk being that person. Seems that since they will not make finals, what does it matter. No matter what, should the members and staff not be clearly rewarded for what they do well despite where the will end up placement wise? Colts visually much cleaner than many corps ahead of them, why the placement? Scouts perc were extremely weak, why that not reflected? I could go on. I won't.

Agree with most of what you said, especially the first sentence. Naming a thead 'dare not say', and then saying everything anyway seems a little silly to me. Besides, pretty much everything said here has been said a hundred times over in other topics. Being afraid to speak ones mind is not really a problem on DCP....

[fsubone]

Whoa, slow down there.... I wasn't tearing down anything you said. I was simply asking if you'd seen the show live which in fact, changed many opinions of BD's show this year after earlier viewings on FN. However, I will mention that I (personally) could never say "I'm not a fan" of any corps as a blanket statement. I enjoy every corps and I see no advantage in slamming any corps who is competing in this very competitive field. I did mention early in the season that Crown's weakness was their guard and Cadets weakness was their battery but it wasn't done in a belligerent way.

Finally, anyone who played or plays trombone at FSU is OK in my book!

Well, thank you. Things make a little more sense when we all write them out in a little more coherent fashion. Thank you, I'm not going to say I hate BD, just not one of their biggest fans, their shows just haven't really done it for me in the past. Just one of those things.... They are the best at what they do, no one can argue that point, just not my style....

[Puppet]

In regards to #9, I would say "Yes, yes, yes".

Years # of different corps to appear in top 5

1972-1976: 12

1973-1977: 10

1974-1978: 10

1975-1979: 8

1976-1980: 7

1977-1981: 8

1978-1982: 8

1979-1983: 8

1980-1984: 8

1981-1985: 7

1982-1986: 7

1983-1987: 7

1984-1988: 7

1985-1989: 7

1986-1990: 8

1987-1991: 7

1988-1992: 7

1989-1993: 7

1990-1994: 7

1991-1995: 7

1992-1996: 7

1993-1997: 7

1994-1998: 7

1995-1999: 7

1996-2000: 8

1997-2001: 8

1998-2002: 7

1999-2003: 7

2000-2004: 7

2001-2005: 8

2002-2006: 7

2003-2007: 6

2004-2008: 7

2005-2009: 7

By comparison, the NFL, which is the most popular sports league in America, has had 15 different teams make the "top 4" in the last 5 years. (Difficult to do a top 5 in football)

Now this I like! I think like this but I could never compile these kind of stats or an easy to understand comparison. It's this kind of thinking we need as our GE judges. Someone to take meaningless numbers and crunch them so they mean some thing.

Oh yeah, indoors, synths, more than 6 in the pit (unless you just must have a bottle blower or two), and put a decibel controller on that puppy, too and of course I don't know about bringing back the Kazoo - don't those things have like a little paper thing that vibrates like a reed on a clarinet or something? Please not in Drum Corps.

What else ...

That's it - the GE caption. Toss it.

Yeah.

Puppet

[MikeD]

Now this I like! I think like this but I could never compile these kind of stats or an easy to understand comparison. It's this kind of thinking we need as our GE judges. Someone to take meaningless numbers and crunch them so they mean some thing.

However, #9 is hardly unique to the DCI era...look at VFW Nats over a 5-year period from 65-69....only 7 corps in the top five over the 5-year period.

Cavies...5/5

Troopers...5/5

Kilties...4/5

Des Plaines...4/5

Royal Airs...3/5

BS...2/5

BAC...2/5

1965 RA Cavies Kilties Troopers Des Plaines

1966 Troopers Cavies BAC Des Plaines BS

1967 Cavies Troopers Des Plaines RA Kilties

1968 Kilties Cavies Troopers Des Plaines RA

1969 Kilties Cavies Troopers BAC BS