BRASSO Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) I like Mason's suggestion to put in an "Entertainment Judge". Forget the propoal about an " Artiste " Director. That's sounds so mamby pamby. Everybody's notion of what is good " Art " is every bit as subjective as to what is good " entertainment ". So what the heck, put in an " entertainment " judge and let him have to tell us ( for just one example ) that 2010 BD was the most " entertaining show " out there last season. I say think outside the box and go for it. Put in an " entertainment " judge. The activity is in the Performing Arts. What commercially wealthy and successful Perfomer in the so called " real world " doesn't want to entertain as many people as they possibly can ? So I applaud Mason's suggestion. He's the most commercially successful guy outside of Drum Corps that is currently involved in Drum Corps. So he should know what is needed here about as much as anyone, it seems to me. Edited December 10, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I like Mason's suggestion to put in an "Entertainment Judge". Forget the propoal about an " Artiste " Director. That's sounds so mamby pamby. Everybody's notion of what is good " Art " is every bit as subjective as to what is good " entertainment ". So what the heck, put in an " entertainment " judge and let him have to tell us that 2010 BD was the most " entertaining show " out there last season. I say think outside the box and go for it. Put in an " entertainment " judge. The activity is in the Performing Arts. What commercially wealthy and successful Perfomer doesn't want to entertain as many people as they possibly can anyway ? I believe entertainment is just as subjective as any Art. There have been many shows,plays, pieces of music and so on that I hated that many loved so an entertainment judge to me is just as subjective in opinion and will also vary drastically from show to show if you want to measure it by some kind of audiance response on a particular night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I wonder: will they consider bringing on some pretty well-versed "fans" in that Rules Task Force? Seems like it would be smart to have some voices in the mix that don't have design/educational ties to any specific corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntheMood Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I like Mason's suggestion to put in an "Entertainment Judge". Forget the propoal about an " Artiste " Director. That's sounds so mamby pamby. Everybody's notion of what is good " Art " is every bit as subjective as to what is good " entertainment ". So what the heck, put in an " entertainment " judge and let him have to tell us ( for just one example ) that 2010 BD was the most " entertaining show " out there last season. I say think outside the box and go for it. Put in an " entertainment " judge. The activity is in the Performing Arts. What commercially wealthy and successful Perfomer in the so called " real world " doesn't want to entertain as many people as they possibly can ? So I applaud Mason's suggestion. He's the most commercially successful guy outside of Drum Corps that is currently involved in Drum Corps. So he should know what is needed here about as much as anyone, it seems to me. * Write a comment... Drum Corps World * Mark as Spam * Report as Abuse Drum Corps World Did you know? - Top brass...There was an inside joke among DCI brass judges during the 1984 season regarding the six volume levels of brass performance: fore, fortissimo, gorilla forte, blastissimo, BYFBO (ask a friend if you don't know) and HOMN. HOMN stood for "hickies on my neck", meaning the brass sound was so inte...nse it jumped out and bit the judge on the neck. (by Brian Tolzmann DCW staff) See More Wednesday at 10:25am · LikeUnlike · Comment · View Feedback (9)Hide Feedback (9) * * Add this to the brass sheets. LOL Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peel Paint Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 overall effect is a joke when it's used. And an entertainment judge...well, who defines entertainment? DCA is also fighting this, and I'm very leery as of yet on how they want to tweak their GE sheets. here's the way to fix it...judge the actual sheet. reward corps that touch on each third of the triad of effect, not those that really super heavily on one or two thirds. Stop making effect so design heavy and more on performance. and where I do agree is on how it's presented. arrangement is 100% the key. I attended a clinic he was at a few years ago, and that so sums up what he said then. it was indoor based, but it applies here. Don't design shows that are all about all the cool technical things....judges are fans too. Make them laugh, cry, hoot and holler. Ever hear that Dave Richards tape on youtube of the Troopers? that's a guy getting into the moment, because the corps delivered a moment. I agree, but it would be a challenge to retrain this group of DCI GE judges to actually judge the sheets the way you're intending. They have developed their own unique language and way of assessing things. I think they've practiced at it to develop consistency. I doubt they even see any kind of divergence between what's on the sheets and their scores, or what's on the sheets and the way other people see GE. I think they've had their "fan perspective" trained out of them. You'd have to drill them a lot as a group watching recordings of old shows to work it back in and get them thinking not just Gosh, that's hard to do, or Gosh, that's impressive, or Gosh, that's original, but instead to score in part what others would like GE to be evaluated as, which is Gosh, that really makes me feel a strong emotion rather than crashing boredom. Then the challenge is to train them to be able to score it somewhat reliably and consistently as a group. Not impossible... but a challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) I believe entertainment is just as subjective as any Art. There have been many shows,plays, pieces of music and so on that I hated that many loved so an entertainment judge to me is just as subjective in opinion and will also vary drastically from show to show if you want to measure it by some kind of audiance response on a particular night. Well, I assume that we all start with the fundamental premise that ALL of judging is " subjective ". The judges afterall are all judging completely dissimilar shows and performances. So I see no real difference from adding a " Entertainment Judge " to a grouping that includes for example a current " Visual General Effect " judge. Edited December 10, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Well, I assume that we all start with the fundamental premise that ALL of judging is " subjective ". The judges afterall are all judging completely dissimilar shows and performances. So I see no real difference from adding a " Entertainment Judge " to a grouping that includes for example a current " Visual General Effect " judge. Amen. This sounds suspiciously like what I've been saying for months now. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruckner8 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 To quickly sum it up. He has started the conversation on judging changes for the year 2012 with proposing liaisons (3 for visual and 3 for music). He wants a Rules System Task Force. George Hopkins suggested an Overall GE Judge. Jim Mason suggested an Entertainment Judge. Lastly, he wants corps to be able to keep their distinctive identities without having to copycat for higher placement, so the audience member gets a greater variety of performances rather than 25 cookie cutter programs. Thank you! Saved me lots of time. I don't care what the judging system is, as long as it continues to reward excellence in performance and design. If it starts rewarding "garbage dressed as entertainment" count me out. Case in point: 1982 SCV pulled out bottle dance at Finals. It was an admitted train wreck. But it brought the house down. How should it be rewarded going forward? IMO, it should not be rewarded at all, since it was so poorly performed. But if the two concepts can be clearly separated, I'm OK with it. IOW, as long as the "execution judge" gives 1982 SCV low marks, and the "entertainment judge" gives SCV high marks, it's fine. Unfortunately, all too often today, "gee whiz" is rewarded regardless of performance (usually Cadets and Cavies), and amazing performance is rewarded regardless of substance (BD comes to mind). If Signor Cesario wishes to clarify those delineations, I'm on board. One more suggestion: throw out every single judge and start over with a completely new panel. Roll them out with the new system. Train them over the course of 2011, and let them start in 2012. We can bring back the thrown-out judges after 3 years away from the activity, and only if they agree to 3 yrs of re-training. Unfortunately, no one's clamoring to be a DCI judge, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd Glasgow BB Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Case in point: 1982 SCV pulled out bottle dance at Finals. It was an admitted train wreck. But it brought the house down. How should it be rewarded going forward? Entertainment + Execution SCV 1982: 9/10 for entertainment, 3/10 for execution = total 12/20. or BD 2010: 5/10 for entertainment, 9.5/10 for execution = total 15.5/20. Just my opinion of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Too bad they couldn't have had him on a skype call or something..where the audio is a lot more crisp and clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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