Lincoln Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 In a more practical illustration... a Yamaha clarinet that is on around the level of quality as the Xeno trumpets would cost at least $2,500 -3,000. After a single season, it would be nearly useless, especially for resale. You could make a lamp out of it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) One thing that stuck out to me that everyone is overlooking. George said that DCI is a non-profit for a reason. And that reason is to enrich young.musicians through music education and performance. If you stick with that mantra and have it guide DCI's future then of course you would want to add woodwinds/etc. because it opens avenues for more students to have an enriching experience. He also said that if that is NOT our purpose then DCI should no longer be a non-profit. If the emphasis is the art form and the entertainment and the show design then the core non-profit message isn't the focus. Ideally you would want both together but Maybe by having both (the emphasis on art, and the emphasis on student enrichment) you do end up having to limit the potential growth for both to some degree. However the balance is really only determined by your intupretation of DCI's non-profit purpose. George isn't arguing for woodwinds as much as he is arguing for a commitment to Enriching as many students as possible in as many ways as possible through an activity he has a lot of passion for. Edited June 20, 2012 by charlie1223 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 One thing that stuck out to me that everyone is overlooking. George said that DCI is a non-profit for a reason. And that reason is to enrich young.musicians through music education and performance. If you stick with that mantra and have it guide DCI's future then of course you would want to add woodwinds/etc. because it opens avenues for more students to have an enriching experience. He also said that if that is NOT our purpose then DCI should no longer be a non-profit. If the emphasis is the art form and the entertainment and the show design then the core non-profit message isn't the focus. Ideally you would want both together but Maybe by having both (the emphasis on art, and the emphasis on student enrichment) you do end up having to limit the potential growth for both to some degree. George isn't arguing for woodwinds as much as he is arguing for a commitment to Enriching as many students as possible in as many ways as possible through an activity he has a lot of passion for. DCI is NOT non-profit because it offers music enrichment to ALL comers. There is no requirement to reach, or even be available to, ALL kids who are musically inclined in order to qualify for non-profit status.. Isn't it ironic that we dinos have argued that, BITD, drum corps used to appeal to more kids than today, and now progressive GH seems to agree with us? You can be sure that Hop would squeel like a stuck pig right along with the other directors when they had to pay taxes on their profits (when they have them). If George's guilt is so powerful there is nothing stopping him from turning his organizations into for-profit entities. I'm sure DCI would let him march as a corporation as long as he played by the rules. But, again, until he converts his own orgs to taxable he has no business chastising the other directors or DCI with veiled claims of hypocracy. His attempt to paint everyone else in the activity as guilty of hypocracy is hollow when he claims the same tax status as the others. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Further, it was only two years ago when GH demanded that ALL of DCI's profits go to a small, select group of corps. How did that rationale go again? Oh yea, only those corps were strong enough, and did the right things, to spread the word and grow the activity. Now it's all about being guilty for being tax exempt? Seriously? The common thread in all of this is money. Don't forget that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Woodwinds will never end up in drum corps, but not for the reasons most consider. It is the amount of time outdoors and extremes in temperature that are the real issue here. With brass instruments, even though there is some variation based on size, they all react to these changes in temperature/humidity in roughly the same way. With woodwind instruments, there is a much greater variation and a lot of other funky issues. On top of this, higher quality woodwind instruments are not able to handle so much time in the sun or such extremes. The woodwind instruments that are more durable are not able to produce anywhere near the quality of sound. You will also have issues of reeds, pads, adjustments, etc. Disaster. Each group would need to be traveling with a qualified repair tech to be able to keep instruments in proper playing order. An additional expense that makes no sense. In a more practical illustration... a Yamaha clarinet that is on around the level of quality as the Xeno trumpets would cost at least $2,500 -3,000. After a single season, it would be nearly useless, especially for resale. Under the current procurement model that many corps use, it would not be affordable for corps to add instruments that would lose so much of their resale value in a single season. The per participant cost for these members is prohibitively higher, not to mention technical issues, etc. I have no issue with woodwinds in terms of instrumentation, but the increased pool of participants would not balance the increased costs and challenges. These are some really important points that you make, and I believe you are right. I really doubt we see woodwinds in drum & bugle corps. In addition to the reasons you have stated, I do not see the jump in numbers that GH or other directors think might take place. Most woodwind players I knew in HS and college wanted to march brass in band or corps, and/or they simply feel that the outdoor arena is better suited to brass. Brass instruments are much cheaper to buy, and for the money the field brass is really not a bad deal. Woodwind prices are ridiculous. A good clarinet can be even more costly than the $3,000 mentioned above. A good flute will run you some serious cash, and look out if you plan to march bassoons, bass clarinets, in addition to the sax family. You just can't march the cheap woodwinds and think that will do. And God forbid you march piccolos. What a gross sound that can be, especially with too many of them. More to the point, an abundance of woodwinds will ultimately take away from the wonderful brass sounds that we hear. Drum corps is one of the few places in America (and elsewhere, but especially here) where you can hear an all-brass ensemble. Those of us who love this activity have fallen in love with that homogenous sound along with the battery and pit percussion. It is one of the most unique art forms going and it seems senseless to whack-it so woodwinds can be added, so (golly gee) maybe we can add more kiddies who would not have a chance to march (like we are trying to do some incredible thing for these poor children who play woodwinds). Let me tell you the truth about woodwind players: typically the students that I have and those that I was in college band with were some of the best musicians in the school. They are talented enough to learn a brass instrument and march. In fact, many do. They would be insulted by such a change in drum & bugle corps. Here is another part of the argument to be careful of: those that are in favor (GH and others) tend to say things like "DCI will not survive without trying something..." Folks, this is a misnomer. If they get you to buy into the first part of the argument, then they can sell their pitch on woodwinds, electronics, narration, etc. This is a classic sales pitch. Make the people think doom & gloom is dotting the road ahead, and unless change happens the sky will fall. Don't buy it. I know things haven't always been rosy, but Hell hath not frozen over. DCI and Drum & Bugle Corps have survived for a long time and will continue to do so. There was a period in the 70s and 80s when a lot of corps died, but not for lack of popularity or even membership, but in many cases because they were not run by people with financial experience. That model has changed and although it is incredibly expensive to run a present-day drum corps, the fact is that we know more now and there are people who are willing to run these organizations who understand finance, who want to build community ties and regional awareness, and their ability to work with DCI is much more streamlined than ever before. I truly believe the activity will grow some in the next 20 years, not dissolve or shrink. I think the popularity is there for students. Cost will remain an issue, and funding will always be an issue, but I see how popular it is with young band students, and I know how wonderful an experience it can be. Knowing that gives me hope that this activity is ready for a re-birth. Marketing will be key. Fan-friendly shows will be key. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 How many clarinets do you need to have to be heard in balance, in LOS, with Carolina Crown's horn line for the past decade?? How many pics? flutes? clarinets? bassoons? oboes? well, since you can mic a small ensemble... you only need 1 per part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieT Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 You hit the mail on the head there! We still go to shows but the enetertainment factor up and down the board is just not there. It has improved somewhat the last few years, but still not in the same league overall as in the good ole days. (70's, 80's, 90's) Prime example, how many good old fashioned standing ovations do you see at shows today? They are few are far between. There's little to nothing worthy of standing up and cheering about. A few isolated moments here and there just isn't going to cut it and I'm certainly not alone in that sentiment! Whoa! I'm not young by any stretch and have only been a drum corps fan for about 5 years so I know very little about the shows of the 70's, 80's or even the 90's outside of what I've listened to via Fan Network. That being said, I find it insulting to every kid who is out there in the scorching heat, practicing 12 hours a day trying to perfect a show for ALL of our enjoyment, when you say there is little to nothing worthy of standing up and cheering about. I stand up and cheer because good show/bad show, those kids all worked their butts off and they deserve our respect and support. Personally, I will give every corps I see this year a standing O. They all deserve it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And in first place~ Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Whoa! I'm not young by any stretch and have only been a drum corps fan for about 5 years so I know very little about the shows of the 70's, 80's or even the 90's outside of what I've listened to via Fan Network. That being said, I find it insulting to every kid who is out there in the scorching heat, practicing 12 hours a day trying to perfect a show for ALL of our enjoyment, when you say there is little to nothing worthy of standing up and cheering about. I stand up and cheer because good show/bad show, those kids all worked their butts off and they deserve our respect and support. Personally, I will give every corps I see this year a standing O. They all deserve it! But you're standing up and cheering out of respect for the kids, which is precisely what we should all be doing. I think he was referring to when corps were much more exciting than they are today. In general, I mean. Some of us still like the more powerful shows with maybe a ballad mixed in. Loud and wild endings used to bring people up off their seats and it was not always just to be polite. What many people don't quite understand is that it is hard for some of us to let go of what once was. Add woodwinds to the mix and then we lose more of what we know as drum corps. No disrespect intended to marching bands as I love them as well, but if and when I want to see them I can go to their shows. I think Hop likes to push the envelope, but these other people in here know much more than I do. All I know is that I am a bleacher bum and I will definitely stand and cheer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Add woodwinds to the mix and then we lose more of what we know as drum corps. No disrespect intended to marching bands as I love them as well, but if and when I want to see them I can go to their shows. I think Hop likes to push the envelope, but these other people in here know much more than I do. All I know is that I am a bleacher bum and I will definitely stand and cheer. This has nothing at all to do with pushing the envelope. It's all dollars and cents and Hop doesn't beat around the bush either. Sure he tries to couch it in "Drum corps is about to die if we don't do this" terms, but his reasoning is that there's a LOT more money available if you merge drum corps into the marching band world. Suddenly you're part of the music education scene of 2 million young people, not an activity for 5000 or so mostly college age kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joec312 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If woodwinds are added. What makes Drum Corps different from Marching Bands? BOA (Music for All) stopped running shows in the summer time because most of the bands didnt have the $ to field a summer show There are four main groups of people who buy tickets Drum Corps; Parents, Drum Corps Alumni, Marching Band Members and people who come because they are supporting a local performance. Many of the people in these groups come for a reason other than seeing all the corps perform. Every time DCI initiates a major change it seems to alienate segments of these groups causing them to opt out of attending shows. Sometimes change makes things better, sometimes it makes it worse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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