What does BDs’ victory really mean?

[fsubone]

[/i]

Finally.....if you want to see a "new" champion....beat em' ($1 to Bone).

Thanks. I need that dollar actually, being a broke college student and all.

Honestly, that is the root of the argument. If we want to see a new champion, or BD not medaling every year, then other corps need to step up their game. If you want to beat the best, you either play their game, or develop a new game that you're better at. Either adapt, or force them to adapt to you. Cadets re-wrote drill design in the mid-80s, and BD only took one championship between the Cadets first championship and 1993. because it took them longer to adapt to the new game of visual design. When the Cavaliers re-wrote the book in the early 200s, instead of following that mold, the Blue Devils emerged in 2008 with an entirely new visual style, that took ideas from the Cavaliers, but took everything in a new direction, and took 3 of 5 championships. If another corps wants to beat the Blue Devils, and knock them off the podium, then they'd need to develop a new "game" as it were to re-write the books on DCI, and make everyone else adapt. It's really as simple as that.

Now, I know that there are fans who hate change, and just want things to stay the same, but they're not the ones I'm talking to right now. I'm talking to the fans who are die-hard fans of the Cadets, Crown, SCV, Cavaliers, Phantom, Madison, Bluecoats. If any of those corps want to be on that top spot, and fill the podium, then they'd need to design shows that can either beat the Blue Devils at their own game, or develop a new game that BD doesn't know how to play.

Clarification before someone tries to call me on it. I don't just want the Blue Devils to lose. I want the best corps to win every year, whether they wear blue, green, cream, white, maroon, black, whatever. I want the best corps with the best show to be on that top spot on Saturday night.

Edited September 8, 2012 by fsubone

[charlie1223]

If I saw what the judges see in BD I would love them. if I just had a better understanding of why their design approach garners such favor I would love them. If I could hear a GE judge or visual ensemble judge, or colorguard judge point of view of their rep and performance I would love them. Until then this disconnect makes me not love them. No personal vendetta, no innate hatred, just a disconnect from a purely judging/point perspective. I have no problem with the BD org or even there show designs, just how they are judged. Because my perception, based in what I know, does not line up with the judges for this specific corps, and only this corps (sort of)

It would honestly be enlightening to hear from actual judges on how they give numbers out to completely different approaches to drum corps/drill/music/demand/artistry/etc.

I mean theres no reason that DCI judging needs to be such a secret... Release tapes or give explanations why this corps caption was better than anothers. Maybe it's too much to ask but that's all I'm looking for. :)

I can still disagree with the judges but to me reading thd sheets alone still leaves me wanting more understanding.

Honestly, I don't want my favorite show or corps to win all the time. But I just want to be excited and content with whoever wins, even if I fmdont like the show or the corps (this is not the case in 2012). I feel I am capable of this if I just get more concrete explanations of what judges want, look for and reward.

And curse the person who takes these comments out context or twists them around ;)

Edited September 8, 2012 by charlie1223

[fsubone]

If I saw what the judges see in BD I would love them. if I just had a better understanding of why their design approach garners such favor I would love them. If I could hear a GE judge or visual ensemble judge, or colorguard judge point of view of their rep and performance I would love them. Until then this disconnect makes me not love them. No personal vendetta, no innate hatred, just a disconnect from a purely judging/point perspective. I have no problem with the BD org or even there show designs, just how they are judged. Because my perception, based in what I know, does not line up with the judges for this specific corps, and only this corps (sort of)

It would honestly be enlightening to hear from actual judges on how they give numbers out to completely different approaches to drum corps/drill/music/demand/artistry/etc.

I mean theres no reason that DCI judging needs to be such a secret... Release tapes or give explanations why this corps caption was better than anothers. Maybe it's too much to ask but that's all I'm looking for. :)

I can still disagree with the judges but to me reading thd sheets alone still leaves me wanting more understanding.

That too. I would love to see more transparency in judging. Like if there was some sort of Dropbox from regionals, where you could actually hear what the judges are saying. That is where i see the biggest disconnect between fans and judges, is what the judges are seeing in BD's shows that a lot of fans aren't. If there was some sort of explanation within the judging community on what get judges, and how things score, I honestly think that we'd see a more positive acceptance of the shows from the Blue Devils. But that's just my thoughts.

[charlie1223]

Thanks. I need that dollar actually, being a broke college student and all.

If another corps wants to beat the Blue Devils, and knock them off the podium, then they'd need to develop a new "game" as it were to re-write the books on DCI, and make everyone else adapt. It's really as simple as that.

Now, I know that there are fans who hate change, and just want things to stay the same, but they're not the ones I'm talking to right now. I'm talking to the fans who are die-hard fans of the Cadets, Crown, SCV, Cavaliers, Phantom, Madison, Bluecoats. If any of those corps want to be on that top spot, and fill the podium, then they'd need to design shows that can either beat the Blue Devils at their own game, or develop a new game that BD doesn't know how to play.

Right... The problem is I think non-BD corps are already doing this! Crown, Cadets have developed their own game that BD cannot touch, it's just a game judges are tired of? Idk, this "game theory". And second, are we really ONLY about the next "game changer"? Seems so superficial... Being a DCI champ should not have to do with how much your "changing the game". Though I love innovation and different... The MOST different or innovative shouldn't auto win by default... DCI judging needs to see past that, certainly consider it, but through multiple facets.

[fsubone]

Right... The problem is I think non-BD corps are already doing this! Crown, Cadets have developed their own game that BD cannot touch, it's just a game judges are tired of? Idk, this "game theory". And second, are we really ONLY about the next "game changer"? Seems so superficial... Being a DCI champ should not have to do with how much your "changing the game". Though I love innovation and different... The MOST different or innovative shouldn't auto win by default... DCI judging needs to see past that, certainly consider it, but through multiple facets.

It isn't all about the game changer. Look, I didn't enjoy BD's show this year. I didn't like what they were doing, but I understood the technical excellence behind it. I'm not saying we need someone to change the game every year, but every few years, we need someone to present some kind of new technique or trick that really makes the drum corps world stand up and take notice. Think about the Cadets in the mid-80s. They introduced whiplash, fluid drill to the world, and we're still doing it today. The Cavaliers really emphasized the visual precision, and geometric movement that we're still seeing today. The Madison Scouts in 1971? introduced us to the theme show, that we're watching today. Star in 1993 brought body movement to the drum corps idiom, and now there isn't a show without some sort of body movement out there. I'm saying that every now and again, we see a game-changing move, and the judging community has to take notice and reward it. And that's what BD has been doing lately. They've been taking the influences of the winterguard world, and have applied it to drum corps. And the judges are noticing this change. Yes, I love a traditional drum corps show as much as everyone else, I really do. Crown and SCV were my favorites this year, because they were traditional, but you can't say that someone trying something different is a bad thing. There's a quote along the lines of "those who refuse to change are doomed to fail," and don't we see drum corps like this. If a corps came out next year, and did a 1970s style show, they would get slaughtered. The same way if someone came out and did a show completely on two-valve G bugles. The judges wouldn't reward it, because drum corps has changed.

Yes, every corps has a style, but most of the corps style aren't giving the consistent results BD's style is. At the end of the day, this is a competition. If we didn't want to be out best, none of us would care about this stuff, and we'd all just do college band where nothing is judged. Cadets seem to always bounce between medaling and 5th place, it's an odd statistic, but it's pretty true. And Crown has yet to capture their first title, even though they have come very close twice now. If these corps want to win, and knock BD off of the podium, then they'll need to develop a show to max out the boxes in the way BD does. I'm not saying do a copy of BD's show design, but design their show with the same sort of "check-list" format, so that they can go down the row of boxes, and force the judges to give them the high score. If they meet the criteria for Box 5, then a judge should in theory give it to them, if everything is fair. But if they're designing a "traditional drum corps" show that doesn't meet the criteria and isn't performed to be on top, then they won't be. It's that simple.

I'm not saying that the corps who does something different every year, or has a gimmick should automatically win. Never, that would ruin any integrity the drum corps community ever had. But if a corps has a gimmick, or a certain trick they use, and performs at the highest level of the drum corps activity, then they should win. The corps that is best should always be on top, even if that's not the crowd favorite, or the one with the cool drum trick or something. But if it's the best, it's the best. And the Blue Devils have figured out how to consistently be the best at what they do. Is it for everyone? No, and that's why there is 20~ other shows to watch and enjoy. But for some, the Blue Devils show designs and styles are the best thing they've ever seen, and always worth the win. I thought Crown could have taken the title this season, with a slightly better percussion section, and things would have been fine. The same way things are fine that the Blue Devils won. I haven't seen anyone burning effigies in the streets, and no one has publicly said they're leaving DCI because the Blue Devils won. Some people will like the show, some won't. That's how everything works. There were people who hated Crown this year, just like there were people who loved them. Life goes on, no matter what. (unless those darn Mayans were actually right)

I have started actually defending what BD does.... Geez, these pain meds must really be messing with my head. Don't think you've won me over Plan9, I just have finally started understanding what the whole drum corps thing is about now that I'm an age-out, and just a fan.

Edited September 8, 2012 by fsubone

[GUARDLING]

.

Edited September 8, 2012 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

It would honestly be enlightening to hear from actual judges on how they give numbers out to completely different approaches to drum corps/drill/music/demand/artistry/etc.

I mean theres no reason that DCI judging needs to be such a secret... Release tapes or give explanations why this corps caption was better than anothers. Maybe it's too much to ask but that's all I'm looking for. :)

I can still disagree with the judges but to me reading thd sheets alone still leaves me wanting more understanding.

well as an instructor I would never want my tapes released. .Now with that said I, nor any current staff memeber I know would ever want it either...these are private comments NOT for the general public OR a competitor. A judge makes comments on strengths and weaknesses, why on earth do I want my competitor to know where these things are and what i may be doing next to my program to move forward....judges arent a big secret BUT comments to a specific corps are and IMO should be.if you understand the tapes and whats on them and HOW it can be used for or againsts a corps you would understand it..My suggesstion is suggest a DCI class maybe to understand the WHY's, or become a judge if you want to sit and judge rather than enjoy ( there can be a difference)maybe find a friend who is a staff person who is willing to let you listen to their tapes..this may help you also. You seem to rreally want to understand and thats cool...good luck

I hope I didnt take your comment out of context. If I did sorry

[charlie1223]

.

Just finals tapes? Those usually do not focus on the negative as much.

[GUARDLING]

Just finals tapes? Those usually do not focus on the negative as much.

hmmmmmmmmmm....maybe thats a consideration

[Plan9]

It isn't all about the game changer. Look, I didn't enjoy BD's show this year. I didn't like what they were doing, but I understood the technical excellence behind it. I'm not saying we need someone to change the game every year, but every few years, we need someone to present some kind of new technique or trick that really makes the drum corps world stand up and take notice. Think about the Cadets in the mid-80s. They introduced whiplash, fluid drill to the world, and we're still doing it today. The Cavaliers really emphasized the visual precision, and geometric movement that we're still seeing today. The Madison Scouts in 1971? introduced us to the theme show, that we're watching today. Star in 1993 brought body movement to the drum corps idiom, and now there isn't a show without some sort of body movement out there. I'm saying that every now and again, we see a game-changing move, and the judging community has to take notice and reward it. And that's what BD has been doing lately. They've been taking the influences of the winterguard world, and have applied it to drum corps. And the judges are noticing this change. Yes, I love a traditional drum corps show as much as everyone else, I really do. Crown and SCV were my favorites this year, because they were traditional, but you can't say that someone trying something different is a bad thing. There's a quote along the lines of "those who refuse to change are doomed to fail," and don't we see drum corps like this. If a corps came out next year, and did a 1970s style show, they would get slaughtered. The same way if someone came out and did a show completely on two-valve G bugles. The judges wouldn't reward it, because drum corps has changed.

Yes, every corps has a style, but most of the corps style aren't giving the consistent results BD's style is. At the end of the day, this is a competition. If we didn't want to be out best, none of us would care about this stuff, and we'd all just do college band where nothing is judged. Cadets seem to always bounce between medaling and 5th place, it's an odd statistic, but it's pretty true. And Crown has yet to capture their first title, even though they have come very close twice now. If these corps want to win, and knock BD off of the podium, then they'll need to develop a show to max out the boxes in the way BD does. I'm not saying do a copy of BD's show design, but design their show with the same sort of "check-list" format, so that they can go down the row of boxes, and force the judges to give them the high score. If they meet the criteria for Box 5, then a judge should in theory give it to them, if everything is fair. But if they're designing a "traditional drum corps" show that doesn't meet the criteria and isn't performed to be on top, then they won't be. It's that simple.

I'm not saying that the corps who does something different every year, or has a gimmick should automatically win. Never, that would ruin any integrity the drum corps community ever had. But if a corps has a gimmick, or a certain trick they use, and performs at the highest level of the drum corps activity, then they should win. The corps that is best should always be on top, even if that's not the crowd favorite, or the one with the cool drum trick or something. But if it's the best, it's the best. And the Blue Devils have figured out how to consistently be the best at what they do. Is it for everyone? No, and that's why there is 20~ other shows to watch and enjoy. But for some, the Blue Devils show designs and styles are the best thing they've ever seen, and always worth the win. I thought Crown could have taken the title this season, with a slightly better percussion section, and things would have been fine. The same way things are fine that the Blue Devils won. I haven't seen anyone burning effigies in the streets, and no one has publicly said they're leaving DCI because the Blue Devils won. Some people will like the show, some won't. That's how everything works. There were people who hated Crown this year, just like there were people who loved them. Life goes on, no matter what. (unless those darn Mayans were actually right)

I have started actually defending what BD does.... Geez, these pain meds must really be messing with my head. Don't think you've won me over Plan9, I just have finally started understanding what the whole drum corps thing is about now that I'm an age-out, and just a fan.

Psssst......Luke!

I don't know what to say....... I'm verklempt! ($ to Mike Myers)

It's too late my young MM, you are already on the dark side.... in fact, you are about to be voted in as Treasurer.

In the end, I think we can agree that all of the above bolded statements apply, but when several corps are maxing the boxes, it is still the corps with the "monster" design that wins. A monster trumps the sheets every time! Think back, since 2008, and the design that sets itself apart from the others always wins. In fact, there were two in 2008 and you saw that outcome (the closest possible without a tie). In 2011, no one was close to Cadets. But it wasn't a bunch of great drill sets and good music, performed well....it was big and Spartacus-like. No contest! So.....it can be done.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Plan9